# Affirmative action in the Supreme Court again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792 "2012-02-24T02:14:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/141 "2012-03-01T05:18:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Do you think gender is a myth? I’ll be happy to answer that question once explain to me what you think is a white person. Do you think Spaniards, Arabs, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Persians, Turks, and Saudis are white? If not, why not. Also, do you think that “blacks”(whatever that means) are less intelligent than “whites”(whatever that means)? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/142 "2012-03-01T05:32:15Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Lol, wot? The winner of the 2004 Curt Stern award [2004 Curt Stern award](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196366/) can clear that [up](http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007). I’m sorry, but I don’t believe in engaging in debates with racists, at least not tonight. You’ll have to find someone else. And for the record, I’m not using the term “racist” as an insult, just a description. Being a “racist” doesn’t necessarily mean you’re an asshole or stupid, though most are both. I’ll presume you’re neither. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/143 "2012-03-01T05:47:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re acting as if race isn’t a myth. We have three pages of discussions about race and intelligence and you wait until post 134 to question one of the underlying premises of the whole thread? What were you waiting for? > **[Race and genetics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics)** > > Researchers have investigated the relationship between race and genetics as part of efforts to understand how biology may or may not contribute to human racial categorization. Today, the consensus among scientists is that race is a social construct, and that using it as a proxy for genetic differences among populations is misleading. > Many constructions of race are associated with phenotypical traits and geographic ancestry, and scholars like Carl Linnaeus have proposed scientific models for t... > **[Race (human categorization)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans))** > > Race is a categorization of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into groups generally viewed as distinct within a given society. The term came into common usage during the 16th century, when it was used to refer to groups of various kinds, including those characterized by close kinship relations. By the 17th century, the term began to refer to physical (phenotypical) traits, and then later to national affiliations. Modern science regards race as a social construct, an identi So... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/144 "2012-03-01T05:49:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sorry, but I don’t believe in engaging in debates with racists, at least not tonight. > > You’ll have to find someone else. > > And for the record, I’m not using the term “racist” as an insult, just a description. Being a “racist” doesn’t necessarily mean you’re an asshole or stupid, though most are both. I’ll presume you’re neither. I don’t understand. Are you calling Chen019 a racist for pointing out that race exists or are you calling Leon Rosenberg and the committee that awards the Curt Stern award racist for pointing out that race exists? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/145 "2012-03-01T05:55:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We have three pages of discussions about race and intelligence and you wait until post 134 to question one of the underlying premises of the whole thread? What were you waiting for? > > [Race and genetics - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics) > > [Race (human categorization) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans)) Wikipedia is a shitty source and I’d recommend finding another source if you want to get taken seriously. And yes “race”, at least as imagined, is a myth. This is no longer the 20th Century and Eugenics has long since been discredited. “Ethnic groups” and “culture” are not. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/146 "2012-03-01T06:33:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t understand. Are you calling Chen019 a racist for pointing out that race exists or are you calling Leon Rosenberg and the committee that awards the Curt Stern award racist for pointing out that race exists? No. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/147 "2012-03-01T07:04:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sorry, but I don’t believe in engaging in debates with racists, at least not tonight. Haha, Neil Risch, Esteban Burchard, Elad Ziv and Hua Tang are all racists? I’m sure that will be news to them 🙂 Anyway, if you want to debate that subject [it was done on the board last year](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=609125). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/148 "2012-03-01T07:22:56Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Haha, Neil Risch, Esteban Burchard, Elad Ziv and Hua Tang are all racists? No, I don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/149 "2012-03-01T10:02:22Z")
Namecalling aside, **Chen019** has a long history of conveniently blurring the [distinction between genotypes and phenotypes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotype-phenotype_distinction), particularly in treating genotypical traits as if there was a direct correlation with social phenotypical and ethnic groupings. Tread carefully. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/150 "2012-03-01T14:04:57Z")
Yikes this thread got flooded with ignorant racists _real_ fast. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/151 "2012-03-01T14:33:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I agree with Justice Roberts that “[t]he way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” > [@Chen019](#): > > A sensible comment which will hopefully also apply in this case. [shrug] So the Supreme Court stops discriminating on the basis of race. Good for their clerkship-applicants, no benefit to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/152 "2012-03-01T15:31:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ll be happy to answer that question once explain to me what you think is a white person. > > Do you think Spaniards, Arabs, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Persians, Turks, and Saudis are white? > > If not, why not. > > Also, do you think that “blacks”(whatever that means) are less intelligent than “whites”(whatever that means)? > > Thanks I think that a person doing a study can divide people into different groups based on physical aspects ofthose people,and certain of thosegroups Canberra called “races” if one wants to. A person may be white or black or bothor neither depending on how the person doing the grouping wants to do it for purposes of their study. Now you can answer whether gender is a myth. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/153 "2012-03-01T20:42:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wikipedia is a shitty source and I’d recommend finding another source if you want to get taken seriously. > > And yes “race”, at least as imagined, is a myth. > > This is no longer the 20th Century and Eugenics has long since been discredited. > > “Ethnic groups” and “culture” are not. We’ve had this discussion before. Wikipedia is a good enough source to start with. The wiki page has cites and all sorts of other thing to back up its content. We’ve had the “does race exist” discussion before and it always turns out to be a semantic argument. I suspect that you are engaging in teh same sort of argument. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/154 "2012-03-01T20:49:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No. Well that certainly clears things up.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/155 "2012-03-01T20:56:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I think that a person doing a study can divide people into different groups based on physical aspects ofthose people,and certain of thosegroups Canberra called “races” if one wants to. A person may be white or black or bothor neither depending on how the person doing the grouping wants to do it for purposes of their study. That doesn’t really answer my question so I’ll rephrase that. Which of the listed groups are white, which aren’t and why: Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, Armenians, Lebanese, Syrians, Turks, and Persians? Then I’ll answer your question. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/156 "2012-03-01T21:00:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We’ve had this discussion before. Wikipedia is a good enough source to start with. No it’s not. Read _The Mismeasure of Man_ by Stephen Jay Gould. That’s vastly superior. [http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Revised-Expanded/dp/0393314251/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330635439&sr=8-1](http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Revised-Expanded/dp/0393314251/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330635439&sr=8-1) > [@](#): > > Well that certainly clears things up. How was my answer not clear? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/157 "2012-03-01T21:02:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That doesn’t really answer my question so I’ll rephrase that. > > Which of the listed groups are white, which aren’t and why: Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, Armenians, Lebanese, Syrians, Turks, and Persians? > > Then I’ll answer your question. > > Thanks I answered your question. People in those groups can be white or not white (or different subsets of white) forpurposes of different studies at the whim of the researcher, and it’s perfectly fine as long as they show their work. Speaking of them as white or not white in the complete abstract doesn’t make a lot of sense. As chief pedant likes to point out, it comes down to pumpers versus splitters. Now you answer. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/158 "2012-03-01T21:22:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I answered your question. People in those groups can be white or not white (or different subsets of white) forpurposes of different studies at the whim of the researcher, and it’s perfectly fine as long as they show their work. Speaking of them as white or not white in the complete abstract doesn’t make a lot of sense. As chief pedant likes to point out, it comes down to pumpers versus splitters. That’s not an answer, so I’ll refine the question for you. Which of those groups do you consider to be “white” and which don’t you and why? Once you’ve answered it, I’ll answer your question. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/159 "2012-03-01T21:22:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No it’s not. > > Read _The Mismeasure of Man_ by Stephen Jay Gould. That’s vastly superior. [http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Revised-Expanded/dp/0393314251/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330635439&sr=8-1](http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Revised-Expanded/dp/0393314251/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330635439&sr=8-1) Oh geez not this again. Are you gopign to provide us with another reading list as a response to every post you can’t rebutt? > [@](#): > > How was my answer not clear? You don’t exlpain anything. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792/160 "2012-03-01T21:31:26Z")
Inn, I answered, you just don’t like my answer. It is not the case that the concept of race only exists if specific people can be landless white or not white for all purposes. There can be any number of races one chooses from 1 (ie, we are all one race) to the number of people that haveever lived (ie everyone is their own race). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-the-supreme-court-again/613792.md?page=9)