Huh Minty noticed the same defect in your argument that I did.
I think I am going to have fun with this DWU.
As for catsix… Well I guess since he doesn’t think then it just isn’t so, social research be damned.
Hey Xema!
Before I go into my long reply, I must say that it really much of any.
I am an outgoing individual, upfront and pretty talkative. (I swear the maker of Zoloft needs to win a Nobel Peace Prize :D). So I’ve developed many whites and asians friends that I talk to on a regular basis. Though most of which stemmed from a mutual interest in DragonBall Z, Mercedes Lackey, and/or the Final Fantasy series. As for other blacks, I have quit trying to talk with them. Seems that most of the black people I have encounted here are very snobbish. I have my own theory on why this is, but figure it isn’t wise to open that can of worms just yet!
Ok! enough about me!
As a whole, I notice not too much interaction but there is some! But for the most part, the asians sit with the asians, the white sits with the whites, the black sits with the blacks, the light-skinned blacks sits with the whites. Despite this, there is no tension between the groups, even though the last AA protest really brought out some . . . interesting feelings. You can read the school newspaper article here on it:
http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/03/20/3c9845a2cd7a0?in_archive=1
http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/03/20/3c98423ad27c9?in_archive=1
I also included the one with Horowitz.
If this capitalist society? No.
I’ll explain if need be, but it should be pretty evident.
- Honesty
Always with this ‘he’ stuff.
Shows how much you all pay attention to me.
By the way, is it now acceptable in this forum to call someone blind and stupid?
I was so not going to join this debate because this really gets my blood boiling. For one, I cannot really defend AA because I believe that in order for people to be treated equally they have to, well, be treated equally. I also think that AA cheapens the acheivments of all minorities in the majority’s eyes so that any black person who “makes it” is seen as somehow inferior.
That being said, I think it is still necessary. There is still much racism in this country. There is still the perception that minorities are “bad”. Let’s look at december’s post:
I will not quibble with his “better than average” idea, but here are a few reasons why blacks don’t do “better than average”
[ul][li]The Penal System– 35% of people incarcerated for “drug abuse” offenses are black even though only 6.4% of blacks use drugs, the same percentage as whites.. I’m sure I do not have to explain the relative numbers. []Health Care–My cousin is working on a study in New York that show the same things as this Washington Post article..[]Banking– I’ve been over this with Dewey before. I still have the links on predatory lending practiced on the elderly and minorities. I can dig them out if anybody wants through go through all that again.[/ul][/li]
The fact is catsix, you may have had obstacles in your life, but you have been privileged enough not to have to face these.
You will never be pulled over by the police for the crime of Driving While Black.
It is extremely unlikely (unless you are choosing to dress Goth or something) that you will be tailed by security through a department store.
You will never discover a job offer or a place to live has “suddenly been filled” (only to re-appear in the following week’s want-ads) when you call or walk in to ask about it.
As I posted earlier, Honesty is out of line to make the assumptions he did about your wealth or the efforts you have had to make to get where you are. That does not change the fact that there is a whole range of burdens you have not and will not face simply because you are “privileged” to not be black.
Well, fine, if you want to send a kid to rookie camp, then that’s OK. The equivelant would be to have a kid tutored, or to send him to a semester of remedial classes, after which he is again tested to see if he meets the admission criteria for the university.
And, BTW, I clearly don’t have a problem with “seeing how hard they can hit the ball”; indeed, that is a big part of what standardized testing is all about – giving kids a chance to show how academically competitive they can be.
What we don’t do is drop Branck Rickey directly into the majors. And what we shouldn’t do is drop kids who don’t meet the ordinary academic standards of a selective institution into an academic environment for which they are ill-prepared. (And yeah, that goes for white kids as well as black).
So was slavery just the sum of individuals acting on their own? How about Jim Crow? These are two things that are undeniably racist. Were they not institutions?
catsix, you think that AA is racist. By saying this, you assert that institutions can be racist. I just wanted to point out this contradiction in your “argument”.
**
Who here has made this assumption, catsix? Honesty sincerely apologized for the glibness of his comment…are you still talking about that? I mean, I think it sucks that people think I’m incompetent because I’m a black and a woman, but you know what? My personal experiences aren’t important to the discussion at hand. We aren’t talking about individual experiences or exchanging anedotes of oppression. For every woe-is-me tale that you have, I have one just as sad or sadder. But so what? I don’t get a pass to whine about it here and neither should you.
**
Unfortunately, catsix, I’m not talking about the theoretical. I’m talking about historical realities which show us that people discriminate all the damn time. No, not all people discriminate, but MANY do. And MANY have. And MANY will, even with AA in place. If your life has been hard as you make it out to be, surely you know this.
**
No, I’m not under that impression and my post doesn’t imply that I would be. Unlike you seem to be doing, I’m not equating wealth with privilege. The “privilege” I’m talking about transcends class.
**
But your response isn’t conducive for debate. You keep insisting on things emotionally, without facts or concrete arguments. If you don’t like the generalizations I have made, prove to me that they aren’t so. For instance, PROVE to me that whites haven’t enjoyed privilege in this country by virtue of being the numerial and political majority, without relying on personal anecdotes. Then maybe it won’t all feel so personal.
**
Post where I said this, referring specifically to AA.
What I DID say was this:
**
It may not have been clear what I was saying here, I admit. What I meant by those last two sentences is that the incidents of racial prejudice faced by whites nowadays are still dwarved by the experiences of black people, both historically and presently. It will be a mighty long time before white people can claim victimhood at the hands of racism. It might make you feel better to make this claim, but the fact of the matter is that even if AA is racist (which I do not think it is, though I would be willing to accept that it is unfair), it’s still VERY small potatoes in the grand scheme of social injustice.
**
They “should” have been getting jobs and positions in college all along. Personal merit should have always been the criterion for acceptance. But it has never been this way, so I don’t believe we’re doing anything that drastic or world-changing. It’s for this reason that I’m not so sure about AA. We should be doing much more. AA gives everyone the impression that the real problems have been solved when it barely touches the surface.
“You will never discover a job offer or a place to live has “suddenly been filled””
That happened to me in April.
‘Please fly out on Monday to interview for a position.’ So, with less than 72 hours notice, I got on the plane, I was offered a position the same day.
A week later I find out that I’m not getting it. It was ‘suddenly filled’ by a guy.
Will never happen to me, huh?
I have been pulled over by the cops for looking ‘too poor to be driving around this neighborhood.’ Does that count? Probably not to you.
And no, since I’m not a convincted criminal, I don’t have to face prison. Or were you asserting that the only reason I’m not in prison is that I’m white?
As for predatory lending, have you seen how easily they’ll hand out platinum cards to college students?
I’m not gonna get started on my experiences in health care, because I could write a damn book on that and still not cover how horribly screwed up my experiences there were.
Any more assumptions you’d like to make about me?
You made the claim that there is privilege. You prove it exists.
You want me to provide facts that state that white people aren’t privileged, but it’s you and Honesty who are claiming they are.
It’s up to you two to prove your claims with verifiable fact.
Good luck.
We have a misunderstanding. My post absolutely never said that Blacks should have done better or were responsible for their situation, or made any other such judgement. In response to Monstro’s question, it seemed unambiguous that my post said that minorities tried harder than the majority, not harder than Blacks. Yet, four posters similarly misinterpreted my meaning. Given that four of you found something I didn’t intend, I must accept the blame for unclear writing.
Maybe one difficulty is that I was thinking about the future. I meant to address how to solve our problems going forward, rather than to assign blame or credit for past actions. My point was to think about what sorts of approaches might best lead to improvements as of now.
In this regard, my opinion is that a victimized approach is not the most effective way to make progress in the long run – even though the complaints may be valid. Unfortunately, focusing on victimhood is rewarded in the short run by well-meaning programs like affirmative action.
Well, typically proponents of “diversity” tout it as a means of bringing a wide cross-section of viewpoints together into the academic village. Which is really the only plausible argument for “diversity”: if changing the rules to admit more blacks doesn’t add something to the educational value of the university, then the “diversity” argument really is shallow. **
Look, a classroom can only proceed at the pace of its slowest member. When the university allows less-qualified candidates to take seats at a university, it by definition slows the pace of the transfer of knowledge. That is, objectively, a bad thing.**
As I’ve noted before, remedial programs are fine so long as, at their conclusion, the applicant meets the ordinary admissions standards of the institution. I also think that outreach programs to inform minorities of opportunities and encourage them in taking advantage of those opportunites are a good thing. And frankly, to be blunt, I think there are important cultural values that need to change in the black community – studying shouldn’t be derided as “acting white.”**
For starters, tragically, the racial gulf in academic performance extends beyond the inner city, so underfunded schools cannot be entirely to blame.
Secondly, this is a little like explaining a prospective ballplayer’s lack of ability as related to the fact that there was no Little League program where he grew up. Maybe true, but that ought not obligate the New York Yankees to put him on the field. The answer isn’t to bring down the quality of the majors, but rather to invest in expanding Little League programs.**
**Clearly, there are other preference programs in place, but they are in no way as widespread as the preference programs for race. Legacy preferences don’t affect that many students; indeed, I’d wager that most legacies, coming from presumably wealthy backgrounds (which correlates strongly with academic success), don’t need the preference in the first place.
Regional preferences are an odd duck. Let’s make one thing clear: they do weaken the academic quality of the student body at a given institution. Generally, they exist at state universities where the state legislature plays a role in funding the school. The idea is to provide educational opportunities for citizens of the state, since their tax dollars pay for the school. The state has made a conscious decision to trade off academic excellence in favor of ensuring its own citizens are well-educated. I generally dislike these preferences, though I understand the political calculus behind them.**
As noted above, SAT+HSGPA correlates with various measures of academic success. The single most accurate predictor of law school success is one’s LSAT score. Even pro-affirmative action researchers like Bowen and Bok recognize that these measures are valid predictors of academic potential.**
[quote]
No it’s to take into account differing backgrounds, rather more like the training camp manager, if we are to continue with strained analogies, deciding to give a set of players who look like potential prospects but haven’t had the opp to play right a shot on the field.**
[quote]
Look, if you want to send a kid to remedial classes and then see if he meets the admissions standards, fine. If you want to send him to a lower-tiered university (the equivelant of the minor leagues) and, after doing well there, transfer to a more competitive school, fine. But you don’t drop a kid who can’t hit a curveball directly into the majors.**
Unless you are discounting primary and high school education entirely as important to future academic success, your position is fallacious. If a kid hasn’t learned the basics of writing, mathematics, science, etc in high school he will not be prepared for the college environment. This is doubly true for academically competitive colleges, where there is less time spent going over old material and the classes move at a rapid clip.
**
One need only look at the systems that were in place in California and the system under challenge in Michigan to see other examples of how these systems operate. The great advantage of the Hopwood case is that, thanks to the attorney’s right to discovery, there was precious little room for the kind of obfuscation one ordinarily hears from admissions offices when the specifics of their admissions policies are questioned.
And frankly, one does not need to look at many individual cases to see that similar systems must be in place elsewhere. Consider: in a November 1997 article, The American Lawyer reported that of all law school applicants in 1996-97, only 103 blacks and 224 Hispanices had a college GPA of 3.25 or better and a LSAT at or above the 83.5 percentile. Only 16 blacks and 45 Hispanices had a college GPA of 3.50 or better and an LSAT at or above the 92.3 percentile. Now consider that, for that same year, the average applicant to UC-Berkely’s law school had a college GPA of 3.74 and an LSAT at the 97.7 percentile.
Berkely is a top ten school. I’m sure the top ten had more than 1.6 blacks and 4.5 Hispanics each (and note that even only accepting those would represent some dilution of standards). Where do you think they got them?
Writer Peggy Mcintosh nicely illustrates what benefits white privilege confer in her life. Notice that nothing in her list is anything evil or attributable to monetary wealth.
If you partake in any of these activities, then you are privleged simply by being in the majority (e.g., being white). Why is this something that has to be proven, catsix? It seems pretty common sensical to me.
Just in case you aren’t convinced, read this article that gives a slightly different perspective of white privilege. Notice that both articles are written by white people, so obviously this isn’t something dreampt up by black people with an axe to grind.
Or, at least by the well-meaning programs of quotas that are used in place of affirmative action in many places.
What I described did not happen to you. They knew you were a woman when they offered the job, then switched it for whatever reason. (Unless you’re claiming that you had an actual job offer, sight unseen, to Michael A Quinn that they pulled back when they found your name was Michaela Quinn. Your original statement was that you flew out and got the job offer the same day–they probably knew you were a woman at that point.)
I have not claimed that women do not also suffer discrimination, but you did not have that job pulled when they discovered you were a woman.
The same is true regarding being pulled over. Are you going to claim that you were pulled over while driving a Lexus or new Cadillac? Lots of people (especially young ones) get checked out by the police for looking out of place. If you are black, however, you can (and will) be pulled over even when you are clearly a professional with a serious income.
You may be as angry as you wish at the assertion, but there are situations that, as a white person, you are simply privileged to not encounter.
Apparently racist and prejudiced statements are not among those, since the latter part of this debate has been nothing but a slam on me, telling me that I don’t know how good I have it because I’m white.
Reposting opinion pieces by people who feel guilty because of their skin color does not constitute proof, and neither does ‘well you must have noticed it, you are white after all.’
The only thing you’ve proven is that you’re more interested in trying to make me feel guilty for a privilege that I don’t have than in actual equality.
catsix, this is not a forum dedicated to hurting your feelings. It is a forum for debate on the issues raised. If you raise a personal experience as evidence in favor of your position, it is reasonable to expect that debaters will dissect this experience to see if it really does support your argument. Please stop taking this process as a personal attack, as your repeated attempts at victimization are becoming, for me at least, a serious distraction from the issues at hand. I very much doubt that any personal insult was intended, and I have a very hard time seeing how it could even be inferred.
Monstro, she has a point–“stupid or blind” wasn’t the kindest thing ever said around here.
Dewey: Branch Rickey, owner of the Dodgers who brought Jackie Robinson into the majors. Sorry, my typo.
I don’t think they’re just trying to make me personally feel bad, but that because I’m one of those ‘white privileged people’, and they’re making racial characterizations about whites, it’s going to happen anyway.
I just think that it’s every bit as awful to generalize about white people and say ‘this must have been your experience because you are white’ as it is to generalize about black people and their experiences because they are black.
Although, it doesn’t really seem so here, because I’m not seeing people saying ‘You can’t generalize about a race like that’ when it comes to whites.
My beef is with these statements ‘You don’t know because you’re white.’ ‘It can’t happen to you because you’re white.’ ‘It never happens that way for you because you’re white.’
Excuse me if I am a bit annoyed at people who paint all white people with such a large brush, annoyed at them just as much as I am at people who paint ANY race with a single brush.
I don’t see it as a personal attack, because they’re not attacking just me. They’re attacking white people in general, and that doesn’t make it better.
I live/work in an urban environment, however, we are surrounded by rural lands. My clients are ex offenders, so many of them are minorities. My former supervisor was a minority.
My supervisor, who rode a motorcycle had to carefully plan his rides, so that he wouldn’t travel in the nearby rural counties. He cautioned his teenaged sons to not go past certain boundaries, because they were more likely to be stopped, searched and generally hasseled by the authorities (makes it institutional for those following the circumstances).
I routinely did not refer my clients to a certain factory nearby since it was located near the head of the Klu Klux Klan. It wouldn’t have been safe for them to work there.
I had a conversation w/a county prosecutor about a client who’d been convicted of a minor property offense in one of the nearby counties - I mentioned the kid was a minority, he replied ‘yea, what was ** he** thinkin’ (by going there). Again, an institutional reference, admitting what most of us in the field see all the time - a minority will get a more serious result in the CJ system, especially when they’re in a rural (aka white) area. I’ve another minority client living in one of those areas - she and I joked about the police call “go out and get the black woman” - except, ya know, it’s not really funny.
Now, in some 20+ years of working in this environment, I’ve never had to caution a white client about working or traveling in some location (tho’ there are certain locations I caution 'em all about).
Catsix I suggest that you go back and re-read Toms posting - neither I nor anyone else claims that white people never face adverse conditions or even discrimination (tho’ apparently we must caution you to understand that the two things are not the same thing).
But, as was described, even if you believe that all minorities will discriminate against all whites, by the sheer numbers involved and the relative positions (minorities still are underrepresented in positions of power), as a white person, you’re statistically much less likely to face discrimination based on your racial characteristics than minorities.
I’d also like to caution you against a common mistake. Merely ‘not getting the job’ or ‘not getting the apartment’ for a single individual regardless of racial characteristic is not the same as ‘routine discrimination’. If an apartment house has 95% white occupancy, it’s pretty darned clear to me that if an individual white person was denied housing, it wasn’t 'cause of their race. If, however, the apartment house has 95% white occupancy, with the other 5% spread out among light skinned blacks, hispanics and asians, it’s more likely that the dark skinned minority was screened out because of their race. I’d also like to note that it is racial prejudice and /or profiling is not the only reason that a minority candidate will be screened out (there may be other factors) however, an overall viewing of the general trends will most likely demonstrate if the issue is an individual one or systematic.
december it was the ‘avis they must have tried harder’ line that gee, caused us all to think you were attempting to say, in essense, gosh darn, if that other minority just showed a little gumption and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they’d be in better shape. Awfully close to ‘it’s their fault’.
<bangs head against nearby wall>
First of all, here we go ahead scapegoating African-Americans as the main benefactors of Affirmative Action which is false. 
Diversity teaches us to interact with others who are different from us. That in itself, is a valuable lesson that many individuals don’t get a chance to experience.
- Honesty
If these things are so ‘statistical’, then were are the numbers?
The one link actually posted was to an article that said there was no ‘quantifiable’ information available on discrimination in health care.
You keep saying ‘satistics show…’, fine. Where are these satistics?
Start backing up your claims. And hypothetical stories about apartment buildings with ‘95% white residents’ are not evidence, they’re hypotheticals.
There has still been no proof offered of the kind of systemmic racism that you’re talking about, and the ‘examples’ you’ve cited are unreferenceable suppositions you made to illustrate your points.
Hello, cite?
allow me, please one more personal story. IN the high school I attended (some 2100 kids), there were 4 families who weren’t white. 2 were hispanic (guessing from the names), two were asian. In my graduating class of 700 students there were zero minorities.
I left and went to a Big 10 School. This was an interesting transition to make. I had a friend in college, Darnell. He grew up in D-troit, we used to joke that our respective parents would A. have kittens if they knew of our friendship, and B. had the same boundaries for each of us - 10 mile road - he wasn’t allowed north of it, I wasn’t allowed south of it.
fast forward some 20 years, am now raising a son. I made a distinct decision to keep him in an inner city school where he’d have classmates of every characterisitic possible in order to best prepare him for the real world. I remember being at a football game with another local school, and there were two marching band members who were darker than Gwennyth Paltrow. I overheard one of the visiting fans make some remark about ‘them’. That student will someday be in the work world with a wide assortment of people of different backgrounds.