# Affirmed:Lenin really is the tits **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021 "2010-05-02T12:42:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/41 "2010-05-02T22:10:50Z")
Whenever someone tries to find a positive thing about Hitler (hey, he was right that smoking is bad for you!), they are quite rightly regarded as a moral cretin. Frankly, anyone who tries to find a positive spin on Lenin (or Stalin, or Mao) should also be regarded as a moral cretin. Just because he once expressed an opinion you agree with does not make him any less of a monster. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/42 "2010-05-02T22:30:11Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > No, Eisenhower warned of a “military-industrial complex” in which the military and industrial interests supporting the military, would foster fear, uncertainty, and doubt, manufacturing or amplifying international and interior threats in order to market and sell expensive and unneeded weapon system development and deployment, ultimately coming to be a dominant political force in its own right … Bingo, you’re almost there. > [@](#): > > Lenin, far from being “the tits” implemented and provided the dogmatic basis for a system of governance that was brutal, dehumanizing, and corrupt to the core. Marxism-Leninism used pseudoscientific philosophy used to justify with absolution a large number of human rights abuses, distortions or fabrications of historical, fiscal, and scientific facts, and generally created the largest and most destructive political and military force in modern history. Whatever you say. Again, I’d like to confine this conversation to Lenin’s sizing up of 20th century corporate imperialism as cited above. Does the 21st look any different? > [@](#): > > … Of course, when commercial interests gain significant political power and are able to use this to squeeze out competition or suck from the public teat without accountability, it is not longer a free market condition of any source; you effectively end up with government-subsidized industries that are little different from any manufacturing bureau of a centrally-planned socialist government. Some folks call it corporate socialism. > [@](#): > > It was this that Ike was cautioning against with Cassandra-esque foresight. Right. Ike (under Mac Arthur) along with Patton led the charge on the peacefully assembled WWI vets in the Bonus Army. Lenin would have shaken his head but would not have been surprised. After all, it was Allen Dulles, CIA Director ('53-'61 and brother of John Foster, Ike’s “Mr. Brinkmanship” SOS,) who “prevailed” (so the story goes) upon Ike, just before the Summit Conference, to send up one last U2 piloted by Gary Powers. Boom. Nikita used it as an excuse to bow out and the Cold War and lots of jobs were guaranteed for another 30 years. > [@](#): > > Lenin was bollocks. > > Stranger OK, Lenin was bollocks, like any modern-day head of a “socialist” state facing our CIA piloted drones. \* He\* only had to deal with our support of the White Army. What a wuss. In WWII, we harnessed populist, anti-facist and anti-colonial partisans around the world with promises of freedom, democracy and self-determination. Once they had helped us dispose of them Nasty Nazis and Nips, we, in essence, gave them the corporate boot which is still alive and kicking strong three feet up our collective ass. Anyone else noticed? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/43 "2010-05-02T22:38:12Z")
Are you trying to argue by incoherence, adhay? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/44 "2010-05-02T22:53:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Are you trying to argue by incoherence, adhay? If that’s what you don’t get out of it, I can’t disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/45 "2010-05-02T23:01:47Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Lenin would have shaken his head but would not have been surprised. After all, it was Allen Dulles, CIA Director ('53-'61 and brother of John Foster, Ike’s “Mr. Brinkmanship” SOS,) who “prevailed” (so the story goes) upon Ike, just before the Summit Conference, to send up one last U2 piloted by Gary Powers. Boom. Nikita used it as an excuse to bow out and the Cold War and lots of jobs were guaranteed for another 30 years. Whisky tango foxtrot? Francis Gary Powers’ infamous U-2 flight was hardly “one last”; it was just one of a series of routine surveillance overflights out of Peshawar that had been going on for three years, and which the Soviets had been previously incapable of intercepting until improvements in the guidance control system in the SA-2 anti-aircraft SAM gave it marginal capability of intercept at high altitude. This was a huge embarrassment for the United States and the Central Intelligence Agency in particular as the agency had previously advised that the U-2 plane was out of range for any extant weapon system the Soviets might deploy to intercept it. This did result in acceleration of the CORONA satellite program and inception of the A-12 ‘Oxcart’ (which lead to the SR-71 ‘Blackbird’), although it should be noted that the U-2 and derivatives remained in operation with the USAF and NASA in various capacities up to the present day. Your insinuation that the shoot down of Powers’ plane was some kind of insidious plot by back room power players is wholly without merit, and as for the rest of your post, I can’t make heads or tails of what point you are aiming for; it reads like a historiographical version of Pin The Tail On The Donkey. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/46 "2010-05-02T23:14:12Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Whenever someone tries to find a positive thing about Hitler (hey, he was right that smoking is bad for you!), they are quite rightly regarded as a moral cretin. > > Frankly, anyone who tries to find a positive spin on Lenin (or Stalin, or Mao) should also be regarded as a moral cretin. > > Just because he once expressed an opinion you agree with does not make him any less of a monster. So the billion plus Chinese that like Mao and his legacy are moral cretins? Lenin’s Imperialism is an cogent and useful analysis of how countries (and corporations) were dividing up all the lesser developed places in the world for the purpose of exploiting the markets. Virtually all political scientists regard this as a very important piece of political philosophy, and dislike of Lenin or Leninism or communism doesn’t change that. Hitler had no important philosophical contribution to political philosophy. Anyone who blathers about international relations at all has a pre-requisite of reading Imperialism before being taken seriously. The same cannot be said for Mein Kampf or the Little Red Book. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/47 "2010-05-02T23:16:43Z")
The point of my anti-communism and anti-socialism is because they can effectively cause the people living under them to be no better off than slaves to the state. Capitalism can and will make us slaves to corporations. As Adam Smith noted, unchecked power of the wealthy can leave to great evil. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/48 "2010-05-02T23:29:29Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > For what it’s worth, I agree with your latter statement rather than your interpretation of my statement, so I clearly failed to convey my intent. > > Stranger I don’t know. I’m particularly bad at understanding things. So it’s likely I just misunderstood what you wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/49 "2010-05-02T23:30:39Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > How about the Kaiser? > Or the King of Prussia? WWI was a product of peace. No one had ever expected the possibility of benevolent relations to form, so when it seemed to be doing so – thanks to trade – everyone got nervous that it couldn’t last, so they started to build up their military in preparation for a war to break out. Seeing their neighbors build up arms made everyone more nervous, until a catalyst finally made it all jump into action. Again, this is a product of human stupidity, and if anything is an odd testament to the power of trade to create peace. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/50 "2010-05-02T23:58:02Z")
Lenin really is like a pair of tits? Huh. And here I thought he was just a moldering mass murdering mummy… -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/51 "2010-05-03T00:09:19Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > So the billion plus Chinese that like Mao and his legacy are moral cretins? Yeah, a bunch of Germans all thought pretty well of Hitler, too. Moral cretins? Yup. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/52 "2010-05-03T00:19:29Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The point of my anti-communism and anti-socialism is because they can effectively cause the people living under them to be no better off than slaves to the state. Capitalism can and will make us slaves to corporations. As Adam Smith noted, unchecked power of the wealthy can leave to great evil. Which it has from the emergence of agricultural capital 10,000 years ago. In the past, armies were paid with booty and booty. Now, the “US Military” is largely subbed out in unbid contracts to private corporate armies … no need to face the usual popular democratic resistance to conscription or any kind of transparency as to where the money goes. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/53 "2010-05-03T00:33:35Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The point of my anti-communism and anti-socialism is because they can effectively cause the people living under them to be no better off than slaves to the state. Capitalism can and will make us slaves to corporations. As Adam Smith noted, unchecked power of the wealthy can leave to great evil. Tony Benn, a socialist from England would had a beef when he and others are added to the same column as the communists, like many socialists would tell you, democracy is the tool that has to be used to prevent that unchecked power. “I think that democracy is the most controversial idea in the world. Nobody in power likes democracy. Stalin didn’t like it, Hitler didn’t like it, leaders of religious organizations don’t like it, and corporate business doesn’t like it. And yet without it there is no chance of changing things.” - Tony Benn. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/54 "2010-05-03T00:38:47Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The point of my anti-communism and anti-socialism is because they can effectively cause the people living under them to be no better off than slaves to the state. Capitalism can and will make us slaves to corporations. As Adam Smith noted, unchecked power of the wealthy can leave to great evil. And always has since the emergence agricultural capital, 10,000 years ago. But with $3 gas and Walmart, who gives a shit? Time’s coming when everybody will, I WAGer. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/55 "2010-05-03T01:19:00Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > \*\*Now, the “US Military” is largely subbed out in unbid contracts to private corporate armies \*\*… no need to face the usual popular democratic resistance to conscription or any kind of transparency as to where the money goes. Bolding mine. Incorrect, and this would be a great debate point if you can provide a citation. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/56 "2010-05-03T01:40:59Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Incorrect, and this would be a great debate point if you can provide a citation. Bid or not, war has been privatized and sanitized for public consumption. [http://rebelreports.com/post/116277092/obama-has-250-000-contractors-in-iraq-and-afghan](http://rebelreports.com/post/116277092/obama-has-250-000-contractors-in-iraq-and-afghan) [http://mostlywater.org/top\_100\_private\_contractors\_iraq\_and\_afghanistan](http://mostlywater.org/top_100_private_contractors_iraq_and_afghanistan) Without these contractors, our ME adventures would not be politically viable. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/57 "2010-05-03T01:55:23Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Yeah, a bunch of Germans all thought pretty well of Hitler, too. Moral cretins? Yup. 🙂 What is a cretin? It’s what’s left of a rational human being after being fed a starvation diet of mom’s apple pie all his life. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/58 "2010-05-03T02:13:38Z")
A professor of mine, who was from Russia (who had spent time in a gulag), referred to Lenin as “the greatest criminal in the history of Russia”. He also pointed out that had there been no Lenin, there would not have been a Stalin. Think about that. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/59 "2010-05-03T02:39:42Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Stalin **was hired** to turn a potential socialist success and really bad example to the capitalist world into a reign of terror and oligarchical corruption. (snipped and my bolding) By whom? Soviet gravediggers and coffin manufacturers? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/60 "2010-05-03T03:15:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > A professor of mine, who was from Russia (who had spent time in a gulag), referred to Lenin as “the greatest criminal in the history of Russia”. He also pointed out that had there been no Lenin, there would not have been a Stalin. Think about that. Right. And if it hadn’t been for George Washington there would not have been a W. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021.md?page=4)