# Affirmed:Lenin really is the tits **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021 "2010-05-02T12:42:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/61 "2010-05-03T06:12:26Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Yeah, a bunch of Germans all thought pretty well of Hitler, too. Moral cretins? Yup. You cast the first stone BrotherCadfael, you seem to know everything about everyone. A billion living Chinese who mistakenly admire Mao are moral cretins because of their opinions, not their actions? I’m glad that I’m allowed to be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/62 "2010-05-03T06:18:25Z")
I too think that democracy is a world changing idea when tempered with representation. History shows us that Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Mao all did evil of a tremendous scale, and their atrocities can teach us something. The OP is merely pointing out that Lenin actually taught us something useful by writing a pamphlet. There are propagandists here who don’t want us to read Lenin’s propaganda because it conflicts with theirs. I’ve read it. It contains a valuable analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/63 "2010-05-03T06:38:34Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Hitler was able to rearm with the help of Western corporations and the connivance of the post-Lenin USSR. Prescott Bush was Hitler’s US banker. IBM, mentioned above. Ford successfully sued the US govt for the allied inflicted damages to it’s truck factory in Vichy France. None of which supports your accusation that Hitler was hired by someone else to do the deed, with the capitalists as the men behind the throne who wanted to make the Holocaust a reality. > [@](#): > > Cites? Use your own google-fu and dispel your own ignorance. You’re the one that believes this bullshit. _You_ provide the cites. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/64 "2010-05-03T09:39:12Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The OP is merely pointing out that Lenin actually taught us something useful by writing a pamphlet. There are propagandists here who don’t want us to read Lenin’s propaganda because it conflicts with theirs. I doubt that a significant number of such people exist. The problem is, mass murder and tyranny tend to poison the well just a little bit. Most people don’t want to read it, because it’s Lenin. Even a cookbook by Lenin would likely get a hostile reception, much less a political piece. So, no it hasn’t “taught us something useful”, because most people won’t read it and would consider any claims made to be highly suspect due to the source. In fact, picking something written by Lenin to push a political position is counterproductive as it only hands ammunition to the people who like to equate anything even slightly left wing with Communism. And I am surprised that I apparently actually had to explain all this. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/65 "2010-05-03T15:01:43Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’ve read it. It contains a valuable analysis. I haven’t read “Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism” in at least twenty years, but as I recall, he claimed that the point of imperialism was to gain superprofits in the colonies to pay off the metropolitan proletariat. Since European imperialism didn’t actually turn a profit, that argument doesn’t really work. I do like the word “superprofits,” though. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/66 "2010-05-03T16:15:54Z")
> [@Ispolkom](#): > > I haven’t read “Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism” in at least twenty years, but as I recall, he claimed that the point of imperialism was to gain superprofits in the colonies to pay off the metropolitan proletariat. Since European imperialism didn’t actually turn a profit, that argument doesn’t really work. > > I do like the word “superprofits,” though. Quite right. My recollection is along the same lines (certainly nothing motivates me to lose precious time out of life redoing that). Everything in history of 19th century colonial effort rather highlights how marginal it was to ‘profits’ of anything like ‘capitalism’ - the old phrase, an empire acquired in a fit of absence of mind is rather closer to the truth, given how much empire territory was acquired by prestige seeking little colonels, and frontier military men seeking conquest of bloody useless tracts to win medals. Lenin was like Marx fundamentally wrong from A to Z. But a master polemicist. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/67 "2010-05-03T16:33:56Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The OP is merely pointing out that Lenin actually taught us something useful by writing a pamphlet. There are propagandists here who don’t want us to read Lenin’s propaganda because it conflicts with theirs. > > I’ve read it. It contains a valuable analysis. You know who else despised capitalism? Of course people like Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Torquemada, Caligula, and Dick Cheney can’t be 100% wrong about everything. Vegetarianism isn’t evil just because Hitler was a vegetarian. But you’re not going to convince many people if you start quoting Hitler’s views on eating meat, now are you? That’s because Hitler was a mass murdering monster, yeah? The view that the Soviet Union was doing OK until Stalin screwed everything up is simply delusional. I’ll give you that Stalin was worse than Lenin, in the same way that Hitler was worse than Mussolini. But the apparatus of state power that Stalin inherited was created by Lenin, and Lenin sure wasn’t shy about using it to exterminate millions of people. As the old Russian saying goes, “Lenin has killed his millions, and Stalin his tens of millions”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/68 "2010-05-03T17:03:23Z")
Given the quality of adhay’s arguments, I _insist_ he have the right to defend Lenin. Just don’t get on the side of anything I like, okay? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/69 "2010-05-03T17:23:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Given the quality of adhay’s arguments, I _insist_ he have the right to defend Lenin. > Just don’t get on the side of anything I like, okay? I have not been defending Lenin but thanks for your concern. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/70 "2010-05-03T17:27:20Z")
Well, then don’t not defend something I like, please. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/71 "2010-05-03T18:21:28Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > I have not been defending Lenin but thanks for your concern. \ And the rest of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/72 "2010-05-03T18:30:09Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > No, Eisenhower warned of a “military-industrial complex” in which the military and industrial interests supporting the military, would foster fear, uncertainty, and doubt, manufacturing or amplifying international and interior threats in order to market and sell expensive and unneeded weapon system development and deployment, ultimately coming to be a dominant political force in its own right rather than to serve the ends of common defense of the nation. Ike was anti-Communist, but not fervently, irrationally so (he reluctantly took on Nixon as a running mate purely to get California, and undermined him at every turn), and correctly recognized that the fear of Soviet and Chinese Communism would be used to justify needless military adventurism. To that end, he favored tacit support (financial and political support of anti-Communist regimes, covert and counterintelligence operations) to direct action, and the use of strategic deterrence versus open confrontation with the Soviet Union, which, ironically, ended up creating an even larger military-industrial complex in support of the “nuclear triad” than conventional weapons manufacture. Ike never trusted Diem and Nhu in Vietnam and supported them only because there was no better option, an opinion that carried over to the Kennedy administration. (There are credible claims that Kennedy had Diem assassinated, although Robert McNamara reports that Kennedy reacted with genuine surprise and shock upon learning of Diem’s death, and Diem’s murder and subsequent power vacuum led to a much wider war and open popular support for the National Liberation Front.) > > Lenin, far from being “the tits” implemented and provided the dogmatic basis for a system of governance that was brutal, dehumanizing, and corrupt to the core. Marxism-Leninism used pseudoscientific philosophy used to justify with absolution a large number of human rights abuses, distortions or fabrications of historical, fiscal, and scientific facts, and generally created the largest and most destructive political and military force in modern history. > > It should be noted that free market capitalism is to European colonialist exploitation as asking a girl to the Sunday ice cream social is to predatory sexual assault. There was nothing “free market” or “laissez-faire” about the monopolistic cartels which were chartered by various nations to enter into colonies, use the native population as slave labor, take natural resources and land without compensation, and administrate governance and security in a manner which maximized profits rather than provided fair and equal representation under lawful authority. Lightly moderated free market enterprise has demonstrated a clear advantage to the cultures that have practiced it in terms of the value it provides and its responsiveness to consumer demand. One need only look at, say, the car manufactures or consumer appliances of various nations to see that this is the case. Of course, when commercial interests gain significant political power and are able to use this to squeeze out competition or suck from the public teat without accountability, it is not longer a free market condition of any source; you effectively end up with government-subsidized industries that are little different from any manufacturing bureau of a centrally-planned socialist government. It was this that Ike was cautioning against with Cassandra-esque foresight. > > Lenin was bollocks. > > Stranger Excellent post Stranger. It was intelligent, accurate, succinct, and pretty damn funny too ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/73 "2010-05-03T19:32:50Z")
Speaking as probably the only person in this forum who has lived under a Marxist-Leninist regime I must say that I found it to be utter crap. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/74 "2010-05-03T20:57:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I doubt that a significant number of such people exist. The problem is, mass murder and tyranny tend to poison the well just a little bit. Most people don’t want to read it, because it’s Lenin. Even a cookbook by Lenin would likely get a hostile reception, much less a political piece. > > So, no it hasn’t “taught us something useful”, because most people won’t read it and would consider any claims made to be highly suspect due to the source. In fact, picking something written by Lenin to push a political position is counterproductive as it only hands ammunition to the people who like to equate anything even slightly left wing with Communism. > > And I am surprised that I apparently actually had to explain all this. Well, I’m not polemicizing in this instance. Left wing and communism are not the same thing in virtually all instances. Liberalism is considered by communists and socialists to be a bigger enemy than capitalism for good reason: it is an workable alternative to both. Anyone interested in the theory behind politics should at some point read Lenin’s Imperialism. Just as they should also read anything written by Machiavelli. Lenin actually committed a lot of evil. Machiavelli committed little to no evil, but was a teacher of evil, but nonetheless understanding him is essential. Not so coincidentally, both Hitler’s and Stalin’s favorite book was The Prince. As for the right wing propagandists who want to conflate have read Lenin (or Marx) and seeing they had a valid point here and there to be the same as agreeing, that is just spreading fear and ignorance. If we want to avoid the mistakes of the USSR, we do need to study the USSR and the ideas behind it. That road to hell was paved with good intentions. We live in the world as it is, with the history it has, not the world we fantasize about with the fairy tales about history taught to school children. (Also a part of the world we live in.) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/75 "2010-05-04T04:58:23Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > No, Eisenhower warned of a “military-industrial complex” in which the military and industrial interests supporting the military, would foster fear, uncertainty, and doubt,…) Ike had the benefit of being in the Cold War early, I agree he was a pragmatic individual and surely saw the signs of what generations of high military alert would mean but I think you give your seer too much predictive credit. Ike saw two threats but theres no doubt in his mind Communism was the greater. His Farewell Address argument begins with ‘we recognize the imperative need for this development’ then adds a large BUT, but this speach was addressed to Americans. Only _we_ can do anything about our growing industrial complex _and_ we can’t decide what the Russians will do. It was a warning against a threat that was dangerous because it was insidious, because there was no need to address the already very real and very obvious danger. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/76 "2010-05-04T05:17:12Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > Speaking as probably the only person in this forum who has lived under a Marxist-Leninist regime I must say that I found it to be utter crap. Can you start an “Ask the communism survivor” thread? I’ve a bunch of questions. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/77 "2010-05-04T10:03:58Z")
I’d like to thank **Second Stone** and **Stranger** for cogent responses to the OP. > [@](#): > > Affirmed:Lenin really is the tits no matter what you might say about his domestic heavy-handedness. Lenin, 40+ years before Ike and without the benefit of Ike’s hindsight on (and singular involvement in) WWII along with the obvious results of that war in turning our large domestic producers into weapons manufacturers, he nails the root of Ike’s Military-Industrial Complex. **SS** has read the reference I based my thesis on and agrees that it’s relevant to the OP. **SOAT** obviously is hip to the Corporate Kleptocracy which is running the world into ruin and I agree with his assessment of Lenin as an asshole. As for most of the rest of you, it’s time for your nap.. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/78 "2010-05-04T10:09:12Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > As for most of the rest of you, it’s time for your nap.. You haven’t established the necessary elevation to condescend to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/79 "2010-05-04T10:35:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You haven’t established the necessary elevation to condescend to anyone. You actually do have a sense of irony. Meanwhile … > [@](#): > > Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. > > Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Turns out it’s the address of World Inc, 666 Perdition Way, at a location near you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021/80 "2010-05-04T10:55:40Z")
All that is moot in light of the Marshall Plan and the Costa Rican withdrawal from the League of Nations in 1925. The connection should be obvious to anyone with a grade-school education. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmed-lenin-really-is-the-tits/538021.md?page=5)