# Afghan man faces death after leaving Islam for Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493 "2006-03-22T22:22:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/121 "2006-03-27T19:01:54Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > He then became a virtual dictator for the remainder of his life. He also sanctioned or tacitly approved further expansion. Virtual dictator? Not really. Islam teaches _Shura_ as one of its tenets. Consultation among the Muslims to determine the best path. An early form of democracy, where the elite would meet and debate. Muhammad was not a de facto dictator. Did he sanction further expansion? Yes, he did, as did every major religion. Proselytising is a part of every nascent faith. Conversion by force was explicitly prohibited in the Kuran. Kuran ordered Muslims to address non-Muslims using kind words and/or reason (depending on how you want to explain the text), and then leaving them alone if they refused to listen. > [@Lochdale](#): > > A significant one. It goes to the very heart of the movement that someone is following as well as to the justification of future actions. That is, an adherent can say that he is fighting a religious war much like Muhammad was or that he is living a peaceful life much like Jesus did. Both might be utterly delusional but it does contrast the differences between the two figures. See, Christianity can be corrupted to excuse slavery, war, and anti-abortionists. Communism and the liberation of the working man can be construed to mean heartless, bloody dictatorships. Judaism can be construed to imply racism. It makes no difference, everything can be corrupted. This is what I meant by it makes no difference. But this is not what you’re saying. You’re saying that Islam, by nature, is violent, oppressive and bloody. I disagree. This may your and Osama’s view, but this is not Islam how I learned it. I was taught that justice, tolerance, truth, equality, fear of god (in the sense of having a conscience and doing unto others…), love of god (in the sense of thanking him when things were good, and staying true when they were tough) were Islamic values, and that I should follow them. Naturally, I became a teenager and got over it, but this is how Islam was taught to me, by Muslims. Violence was never part of the picture, except when talking about hell, which we were assured we’d never see. > [@Lochdale](#): > > They certainly did but usually not from direct quotes from Jesus. Moreover, the Bible is generally not considered to be the literal, direct word of Christ unlike the Koran whose very essence is the word of God as directly quoted by Muhammad. Say it to Fred Phelps. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/122 "2006-03-27T20:50:18Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I wouldn’b scoff just yet. I can, I do. Observe: _scoff, scoff_ > [@David Simmons](#): > > [It seems that all is not peace and quiet just yet.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060327/ts_nm/religion_afghan_dc) And those still demanding punishment do not appear to be fringe elements… _Afghanistan_ is a fringe element. There’s a fact you should know. A minority of Muslims live in the Middle East, let alone the doctrinaire parts such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. If you are interested in mainstream Islamic societies, have a look at places like Malaysia and Indonesia, even Turkey perhaps. > [@David Simmons](#): > > As **gum** , **tagos** _et al_ have noted, this demand for executing the death penalty appears to be a matter of the fundamental law of Islaam, and not the pipedream of some off the wall sect. **Gum** is all about hate-speech and **tagos** while genuine, appears new to the issue. As others have noted, it just isn’t so; that ‘fundamental to Islam’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/123 "2006-03-27T21:01:07Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > For example, I think that the idea that the wafer and the wine are the flesh and blood of Christ is fundamental to the practice of Catholicism even though that is not in the Bible. ?? In Luke 22: “And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/124 "2006-03-27T21:37:36Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > ?? In Luke 22: > > “And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.” I stand abundantly corrected. Stick you neck out and if it isn’t totally severed, you learn, or relearn. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/125 "2006-03-27T21:53:02Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I stand abundantly corrected. Stick you neck out and if it isn’t totally severed, you learn, or relearn. What makes it worse is that I’m an atheist 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/126 "2006-03-27T22:01:07Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > I can, I do. Observe: _scoff, scoff__Afghanistan_ is a fringe element. There’s a fact you should know. A minority of Muslims live in the Middle East, let alone the doctrinaire parts such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. If you are interested in mainstream Islamic societies, have a look at places like Malaysia and Indonesia, even Turkey perhaps. > [@](#): > > **Malaysia: Pas Wants to Stop Muslims Quitting Islam** > > The opposition Islamic party is planning to table a private Bill in Parliament to forbid Muslims from leaving the religion as it is convinced that there are thousands who are on the verge of doing so. > > Parti Islam SeMalaysia (PAS) youth chief Salahuddin Ayub told The Straits Times that the party believes the situation is “very serious” and puts the number at more than 250,000. - what I don’t understand is why anyone would even want to force former Muslims to appear Muslims on official documents. It’s not like having a specific faith listed on some state document will make you belong to that faith regardless. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/127 "2006-03-27T22:10:06Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > What makes it worse is that I’m an atheist 🙂 And I’ve read through Luke enough times that this shouldn’t have escaped my memory. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/128 "2006-03-27T22:26:06Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > I can, I do. Observe: _scoff, scoff__Afghanistan_ is a fringe element. There’s a fact you should know. A minority of Muslims live in the Middle East, let alone the doctrinaire parts such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. If you are interested in mainstream Islamic societies, have a look at places like Malaysia and Indonesia, even Turkey perhaps. Possibly true but irrelevant. Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia are where our armed forces are right now and where we have become entangled. Whether or not the brand of Islam practiced in Indonesia is warm and cuddly really doesn’t have a lot to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/129 "2006-03-27T22:33:14Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Possibly true but irrelevant. Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia are where our armed forces are right now and where we have become entangled. Whether or not the brand of Islam practiced in Indonesia is warm and cuddly really doesn’t have a lot to do with that. It does when fascists like **gum** are making bullshit sweeping statements. As for **Rune** ’s link, I reckon the Malaysian opposition should take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror, and ask why so many are fleeing from their version of the religion - stuff, perhaps, like the eastern peninsular states that have their economies based on inbound western tourism, while also attempting to ban swimsuits and mixed-gender dancing… ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/130 "2006-03-27T22:51:32Z")
Go kiss President Bush’s ass, **jjimm**. He agrees with you. “Islam is a religion of Peace” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/131 "2006-03-28T02:08:23Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > - what I don’t understand is why anyone would even want to force former Muslims to appear Muslims on official documents. It’s not like having a specific faith listed on some state document will make you belong to that faith regardless. It worked for the Spanish Inquisition. We should be glad the Muslim world has advanced to the 15th century. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/132 "2006-03-28T02:14:48Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’ve heard this quite a bit. It is the fanatics who are misinterpreting the religion. How do you know that? Maybe it is those few others who are misinterpreting it? > > Take a look at what **gum** posted just before this. Those calling for this person’s death are the ones following the religion correctly. What is fanatical about that? Maybe that is the way most Muslims feel about the matter which would make it the ‘moderate’ opinion. I am not making that argument. As you and Voyager say, every interpretation is just as valid as any other. I’m just pointing out that to say Islam is a “bad” religion is just the same as saying any religion is a “bad” religion - the difference is the prevalence of those interpretations, and unfortunetly it does seem that these “bad” interpretations of Islam are more widespread than the “bad” interpretations of any other religion at the present time. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/133 "2006-03-28T04:12:20Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I am not making that argument. As you and Voyager say, every interpretation is just as valid as any other. I’m just pointing out that to say Islam is a “bad” religion is just the same as saying any religion is a “bad” religion - the difference is the prevalence of those interpretations, and unfortunetly it does seem that these “bad” interpretations of Islam are more widespread than the “bad” interpretations of any other religion at the present time. I am not saying that every interpretation is as valid as any other. Certainly things can be interpreted, unless they are spelled out specifically. Does it say specifically that apostates must be executed? From the posts in this thread it appears so. Then any other interpretation of that message would be wrong. The only thing to interpret at that point is what is classified as apostasy. If Muslims choose to carry out what their particular flavour of holy book commands why would people be surprised? I wonder if this was a fledgling religion in the west, would it be classified as a cult and banned, say like Scientology is in parts of Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/134 "2006-03-28T04:42:48Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Does it say specifically that apostates must be executed? From the posts in this thread it appears so. Then any other interpretation of that message would be wrong. Unless you combine it with the doctrine of mercy. I’m fairly certain that’s a doctrine of Islam also. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/135 "2006-03-28T06:03:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Unless you combine it with the doctrine of mercy. I’m fairly certain that’s a doctrine of Islam also. Can you wipe away a specific statement with a general principle? The specific statement (death to apostates) seems like an exception to the general rule, doesn’t it? If I follow a general rule that says ‘do unto others as you would have others do unto you’ does that mean that if someone tries poking me with a stick I shouldn’t punch him in the nose to stop him from doing it? I know I don’t like being punched in the nose but I don’t think that general rule I follow precludes me from defending myself from others who don’t follow it. ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/136 "2006-03-28T08:14:24Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Can you wipe away a specific statement with a general principle? The specific statement (death to apostates) seems like an exception to the general rule, doesn’t it? Yes, yes you can. Mercy, in Islam, is a quality above many others, justice being one of them. I’d already posted above saying that death to apostates is clear and unequivocal, _in times of war_. Someone else had posted that Muhammad, who had wanted an apostate killed, was merciful and spared the apostate’s life although he was a traitor in a time of war. Under American law, I doubt he’d have had a chance. This is the principle behind the death penalty to apostates: treason. Muhammad came up with that while he was at war, any one who was an apostate had been a Muslim and had now switched camps, so is a traitor. Keep in mind that ‘_there is no coercion in matters of the faith_’ (or in religion, depending on your interpretation and your translation) is a principle to be followed by Muslims whenever they dealing with each other and with non-Muslims. Every _sura_ in the Koran starts with ‘In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate’. Anyone who ignores the importance of these two virtues is likely to agree with Osama. Or with **gum**. Why do some Afghanis want the convert killed is beyond me. I visit a number of Arabic news sites that allow for comments, much like the BBC. Only everyone there is wondering what the hell difference does it make if one man converts. ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/137 "2006-03-28T08:20:50Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Go kiss President Bush’s ass, **jjimm**. He agrees with you. “Islam is a religion of Peace” Ah yes, when you’ve got nothing to say, insult him. That way, it still sounds like you got the last word. :wally ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/138 "2006-03-28T09:13:42Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I don’t know. Most of the violence by Mohammed’s Muslims was retalliatory, not initiated by them, and at least when Muhammed was first put in charge of Medina, he negiotiated a peace and alliance treaty between the Muslim, Jewish and pagan tribes of the city. (The treaty didn’t work, but that was mostly due to the actions of the Banu Qurayza, and not the Muslims). If you look at Mohammed’s life, and the Muslim community during the time of Mohammed, the impression that you get isn’t one of “massacres in order to establish Islam as the One True Faith superior to all others and to subjagate non-muslims”, but one of a group of people who wanted to be left alone to, more or less, peacefully set up a society and convert their neighbors. He was not ‘put in charge’ of Medina - he was asked to fulfil a common cultural role of arbiter. He ‘took’ charge of Medina with the liberal use of force up to and including assasinations and massacres. Yea - he so much wanted to be left alone he leads bandit raids on Meccan caravans. He was an aggressor from the beginning, at best an old testament style prophet allegedly serving an old testament murdering and enslaving supporting god. Besides - ‘he started it first’ doesn’t excuse a schoolboy let alone a supposed ‘Messenger of God’. This man was more Genghis Khan with a touch of Charlie Manson (oh - the saint-like willpower of keeping his hands off that girl for three whole years, until she was 9) than he ever was a Jesus or Buddha. For a group of people who just wanted to be left alone they sure knew how to build an empire by force didn’t they. What you are repeating is the propaganda of eternal victimhood we see to this day- not history. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/139 "2006-03-28T09:20:28Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t doubt or deny any of what you’ve written, but how common was/is that practive in Muslim societies? How many apostates have been executed in the last 200 years? We can’t possibly know how many people have been stoned to death in villages all over the place but where sharia law has been in place death was the penalty. And remains so. note how the current guy only got off on the Koranic technicality of being mentally unfit - not through a humanitarian renunciation of such barbarity. [Apostacy in the recent past](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Apostasy_in_the_recent_past) > [@](#): > > In the period of the giant Islamic Caliphate, apostasy was considered treason, and was accordingly treated as a capital offense; death penalties were carried out under the authority of the Caliph, the most famous such incidents being the Martyrs of Cordoba. Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania. In Pakistan blasphemy is also punishable by death. > [@](#): > > An accurate count of Muslims rejecting Islam is currently impossible to obtain because the ex-Muslims are very loath to reveal their apostasy even to friends and families for fear of retribution and retaliation even when they are living in the West. The greatest threat to apostates in the Muslim world derives from private individuals who take punishment into their own hands, and states which are complicit by their silence towards these individual crimes. An example among many is the case of a Bangladeshi Murtad Fitri Christian evangelist who was stabbed while returning home from a film version of the Gospel of Luke (“When Muslims Convert”, by Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, Friday, March 04, 2005, Commentary magazine, 2005). Bangladesh does not have a law against apostasy, but someone killed the man. There are reports of 200,000 Muslims who have turned away from Islam in Great Britain alone, [6], and facing abuse, violence, and even murder at the hands of their previous co-religionists. There are similar reports of violent intimidation of those electing to reject Islam in other Western countries [7]. > > In 1980, Pakistan incorporated making any disparaging remark against any personality revered in Islam into the penal code as an offence. In 1986 the law was extended to specifically include “Penal Code 295-C: Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet: whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet, shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine. In October 1990, the Federal Shariat Court (FSC) ruled that “the penalty for contempt of the Holy Prophet … is death and nothing else”. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493/140 "2006-03-28T09:28:13Z")
> [@FWorld](#): > > And you’re a fucking idiot. > > First of all, the idiots in Afghanistan calling for this guy’s blood are tools who never read the Koran, IMHO. The directives for killing apostates, made by Muhammad, were done so in a time of war. An apostate was one who supporeted the Muslims in their war against the pagans, and then turned coats. A traitor. Punishable by death. Under American law. > > Let’s read this according to Islam and the Koran. In the Koran, ‘_la ikrah fid deen_’, there is no coercion in religion. Anyone who is forcing someone to change their religion is doing something un-Islamic. An idiot in a turban is not going to convince me otherwise. And neither is an idiot in jeans. You are wrong. Sharia Law is quite clear. No compulsion in religion does not apply to former Muslims and you have to also take into account, when cherry-picking the Koran that Islamic Law is based firmly on the principle that later statements cancel out former ones. The progressive ban on alcohol being a good example. You are making the mistake of treating the Koran like the Bible. It is not. Islamic Law comes from the Koran, interpreted through the acts of Mohammed and his life as incorporated in the hadiths and reinterpretation of it is officially closed. As Mohammed was perfect all his acts were justified - which is why 9 years is the magic age of young girls among many other things we find repugnant in the 21st century. You can cherry pick phrases from the Koran all you like - it means nothing and says nothing about Islamic Law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghan-man-faces-death-after-leaving-islam-for-christianity/349493.md?page=8)