# Afghanistan is Destroying a World Wonder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2001, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802 "2001-03-05T06:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/21 "2001-03-05T17:41:00Z")
**Tracer** : > [@](#): > > One major reason people get more cheesed off when statues are destroyed than when other people are killed is that statues last longer. So the reason people get so uptight about the destruction of human constructs is because of our continual desperate search for immortality? I’ll buy that. It’s depressing, but I’ll buy it. But to the OP . . . They’re destroying statues. _Big fucking deal._ It’s not because they’re Muslims, it’s not because they’re “fascist” (which of course, they aren’t). It’s because they are the conquerors, trying to consolidate their power over the conquered. It happens, it has happened, it will happen. And anyone who believes otherwise is hopelessly naive. Art is not sacred, it is not inviolate, it is not immortal, it has no soul. And ya know what? As long as there are people there will be more art. Perhaps we sensitive, modern, oh-so-superior Westerners need to look to the plank in our own eyes first. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/22 "2001-03-05T20:04:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > **Tracer** : > > > [@](#): > > > > One major reason people get more cheesed off when statues are destroyed than when other people are killed is that statues last longer. > > So the reason people get so uptight about the destruction of human constructs is because of our continual desperate search for immortality? I’ll buy that. It’s depressing, but I’ll buy it. \*\* We’re not more upset about the destruction of statues than the killing or harming of people. If I could strike a deal with the Taliban where they continued thier rampage on art but agreed to revise their draconian laws I’d jump at it. The destruction of the art and the history of Afghanistan is just one more reason to dislike the rule of the Taliban, not the over-riding one. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > > But to the OP . . . > > They’re destroying statues. _Big fucking deal._ It’s not because they’re Muslims, it’s not because they’re “fascist” (which of course, they aren’t). It’s because they are the conquerors, trying to consolidate their power over the conquered. It happens, it has happened, it will happen. And anyone who believes otherwise is hopelessly naive. > > Art is not sacred, it is not inviolate, it is not immortal, it has no soul. And ya know what? As long as there are people there will be more art. > \*\* If you define fascism as the violent rule by a political dictatorship, then yes fascist is an apt label for the Taliban. They are acting out of ignorance. They are not acting as conqueors. The civilization that left behind the statues has long since left so there isn’t really any culture or societal element that they are trying to repress or consolidate power over. Their actions are based upon a misunderstanding of Islam. Anyone that destroys history is foolish. It is the destruction of knowledge. It is the destruction of what has come before. Anyone that does not understand the importance of history has no real way of knowing if they are moving forward or backwards. They are returning Afghanistan to the middle ages and will suffer all the consequences of not knowing what a difficult time humanity had in that age. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/23 "2001-03-05T20:38:44Z")
Well, I guess it’s kind of how people felt about the Nazis. They killed a hell of a lot of people in horrible ways. But people still are allowed to get outraged at their theft of many great artworks in Europe-which are only beginning to be found. That said, I still think it’s pretty easy to say, ‘Why don’t they revolt?’ It’s like asking, “Why didn’t the Jews revolt during Hitler’s rise to power?” ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/24 "2001-03-05T22:45:08Z")
Well, the important thig is that the Taliban have their _sovereignty_. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/25 "2001-03-05T22:54:50Z")
Are you suggesting that the US intervenes in Afghanistan, **sqweels**? On what grounds? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/26 "2001-03-05T23:00:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by muffinman \* > 2. Two hundred years down the road, which is more significant… the miserable, short lives of a down trodden people, or a 2000 year old monument which was cast into the past by a fascist regime of towelheads? Miserable short lives, of course. Yes, historic monuments are a shame to lose. Yes, “someone” should “do something about it.” Yes, fascist regimes suck, though I wasn’t aware thats what the towelheads were. I admit, though, that I am fairly ignorant as to the whole situation. No, historic monuments are not more valuable than human life (though come on, guys, they are a bit more than a pile of rocks). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/27 "2001-03-06T00:08:59Z")
**Blackclaw** : > [@](#): > > If you define fascism as the violent rule by a political dictatorship, then yes fascist is an apt label for the Taliban. Even accepting that definition of “fascism,” rather than the dictionary definition, the Taliban ain’t fascist. They’re not a dictatorship. > [@](#): > > [The Taliban] are acting out of ignorance. They are not acting as conqueors. The civilization that left behind the statues has long since left so there isn’t really any culture or societal element that they are trying to repress or consolidate power over. Their actions are based upon a misunderstanding of Islam. :shrug: Whatever you say. I’m sure it’s nice to be able to call ignorant those with whom you disagree. And it’s nice you know the “true” meaning of Islam. But look–opressing a people does not require merely crushing that people’s sacred symbols. The Taliban is indeed consolidating its power with a show of force. They are attempting to show that their way is the only way. We may disagree with them, but that’s what they’re doing. Don’t make the mistake of thinking the Taliban are merely ignorant, unwashed hicks. They know very well what they’re doing and why. You’re welcome to think them fools, as I do. But don’t think them stupid–they patently are not. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/28 "2001-03-06T00:20:27Z")
Revolt is impossible if it’s against your own religion. It would be easier to take away their towels and issue them hats, then teach them to sing in Swedish, then sell them Cola-au-lait and LP’s and…superglue and ham? [http://user.tninet.se/~prv247p/hatt/hatten.swf](http://user.tninet.se/~prv247p/hatt/hatten.swf) ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/29 "2001-03-06T01:03:42Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by android209 \* They genuinely do believe that the statues are, to some extent, an affront to their religion; They do rather enjoy the fact that most of the world is _pleading_ with them not to destroy the statues; [QUOTE] I don’t think it’s as simple as moving these statues. The Taliban believes their brand of Islam to be the one true religion, the only path to righteousness. Moving the statues, in their eyes, still doesn’t rid the world of what they consider to be the offensive depiction of living beings. Imagine if a wacko fundamentalist Christian group gained power in the United States. Their book burning campaign begins with Torahs, Korans and other holy books. A Muslim country pleads to the United States to send it any Islamic books and art. The fundies would probably refuse – “We’re here to spread the word of Christ, not some pagan so-called prophet. The Korans are burning.” Same thing with the Taliban. My POV, as if it matters – I agree with the folks who say they’re slapping the face of future generations. Our attitudes towards preserving the past, towards leaving remnants of the legacy of previous human generations, has changed for the better in the past 200 or 300 years. Nobody thought twice at the thought of French troops shooting the nose off the Sphinx, but a modern-day Napoleon would would try it would be deserving of the collective ire they get. Historic preservation and archaeology are relatively recent introductions to society as a whole, and hopefully, 2000 years from now, future generations will know far more about us than we know of the ancients. Notwithstanding the Taliban, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/30 "2001-03-06T01:15:48Z")
elmwood: Napoleon did not, nor did any of the French, shoot the nose off of the Sphinx. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/31 "2001-03-06T01:39:24Z")
No matter how true it is, it ain’t true if it ain’t supported, **Guin**. [http://home.xnet.com/~warinner/sphinx.html](http://home.xnet.com/~warinner/sphinx.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/32 "2001-03-06T02:09:21Z")
Those who have the luxury of questioning things beyond mere survival have the time to find practices such as these abhorrent; the rest likely do not. Works of art such as these hold a special place in my heart because they are enormous projects prosecuted with a major objective in mind: _Remember this time, through the ages. This is when we kicked some serious ass._ Certainly there are other major objectives, religion of course being the primary driver of many of our largest and most enduring works. Think about the infrastructure that must underly the construction of such works: labor must be organized; trade must be organized; an entire subset of the population–designers, engineers, workers, artisans and artists–must subsist on the work of others while such a thing is constructed. A society must have the surplus of muscle and brain power to construct such things. The existence of such works implies one thing above all others: _civilization_. The other side of the coin, however, is not so pretty. What happens when _civilization_, as I so snootily define it, is beyond the grasp of those who live in the very shadow of such relics? Are they inspiration? Perhaps not. Perhaps they are they looming symbols of opression, exploitation, and interference–especially interference. One might not be able to construct such masterpieces, but one might be able to make a statement of one’s own: destruction, erasure. A fresh start on the same ground without the demons of the past casting their own silent, vaguely superior, input into the argument. I do not believe the people who would so these things are so simple as to be acting purely from malice. They are trying to carve their own path into the future, and their past haunts them. It breaks my heart to see such a thing done to innocent piles of rocks, for they are no longer merely piles of rocks. They are the testament of a people long past, who left their statement hewn into the very earth: _we were here._ But on the other hand, when a fiercely independent people such as the Afghans once again rail at the intrusion and intervention of other peoples–as they have traditionally done for centuries–I can understand why they consider such acts necessary. They are trying to make a place that I’ll never understand, but I would like to think I understand why they do such things. I wish they would reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/33 "2001-03-06T02:18:47Z")
Whoever pointed out that they are just rocks is right. I speak as a buddhist. These are not just my rocks, but everyones’. They only have the meaning that you make them to have. _However,_ the Afghani are destroying what took time and work from others. This should not be accepted. Many years and countless people worked to make these. Are we to stand by as the relics of another age are destroyed? This is not a good thing. To try and save these things is not only the right thing. It is the human thing to do. The quality of mercy is unstrained. The Taliban is doing this to seek recognition as a government. How we should deal with that, I know not. The concern over human vs. rock is very apparent in this debate. I would gladly trade these artifacts to get rid of the oppressive government. But I believe that the rocks should be protected, as they are not just rocks, but visible signs of past people’s work and suffering. They are not just a show of faith. They are a show of human-ness. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/34 "2001-03-06T04:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > > Even accepting that definition of “fascism,” rather than the dictionary definition, the Taliban ain’t fascist. They’re not a dictatorship. If you want to get technical they are a theocracy, a religious dictatorship. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > And it’s nice you know the “true” meaning of Islam. I make no such claim. But when every other Islamic nation in the world condemns the action, it’s a fair bet that the Taliban got it wrong. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > But look–opressing a people does not require merely crushing that people’s sacred symbols. The Taliban is indeed consolidating its power with a show of force. They are attempting to show that their way is the only way. We may disagree with them, but that’s what they’re doing. As I pointed out before, they are destroying the symbols of a culture that no longer exists. The Taliban consolidated it’s power in the area it controls long before it went on its statue killing rambage. They already control almost every aspect of the populations’ lives. > [@](#): > > Female employment and education is restricted or banned. Women must stay at home. If necessary, women who do leave the house must be accompanied by a male relative and cover themselves with a burqa (an ankle-length veil with a mesh-like opening in front of the eyes). Non-religious music, cassette tapes, TV and movies are all banned. Multi-colored signs are prohibited. White socks are forbidden (either because they are considered a sexual lure or because they resemble Afghanistan’s flag). Children cannot fly kites, play chess or play with the pigeons since it distracts them from their religious studies. Men must wear beards or face prison until their shaven whiskers grow back. Paper bags are banned since the paper might have been recycled from old Korans and lower level windows must be blackened to prevent males from inadvertently catching women in compromising states. In order to guarantee that men and women observe the new rules, the Taliban have employed a moral police force (Agents for the Preservation of Virtue and Elimination of Vice) to search for violators. The purported brutal treatment of offenders by the moral police has led Amnesty International to classify the conduct a “reign of terror.” From: [http://www.nutshellnotes.com/afghanistan\_text.htm](http://www.nutshellnotes.com/afghanistan_text.htm) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > > But don’t think them stupid–they patently are not. > \*\* I have yet to see any proof that would indicate otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/35 "2001-03-07T01:02:03Z")
Guinastasia wrote: > [@](#): > > Napoleon did not, nor did any of the French, shoot the nose off of the Sphinx. Pshaw! Next you’ll be telling us that aliens from Zeta Reticuli didn’t build the pyramids. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/36 "2001-03-07T18:58:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by muffinman \* > If the U.S. ever engages Afghanistan, I’ll be first in line to sign up and pump them full of lead. I love history, and they’re stealing from all future generations. I’m sure the Afghans are real scared. I’m not mocking you (much), but it’s far more likely that you (or I) would be the ones having their testicles used for polo practice (or whatever suitably grotesque customs the Afghans have for torturing their enemies). So would you be willing to DIE for those statues or have your children die protecting them? I like history too, but I would rather not become a part of it right now. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/37 "2001-03-07T21:52:25Z")
This whole issue disgusts me. Not because I don’t think it’s a sad and terrible thing, but because of how the attention has been captured. Westerners: “No! No! Don’t tear down beautiful statues! Oppress your people, murder your women, but don’t tear down statues! No! Let’s get involved!” Ick. Repulsive. Revolting. Let the entire women’s issue there slide by, but get angry over the tearing down of statues. Brilliant. Don’t get me wrong–I fully think that the loss of the statues is indeed terrible–but if you’re going to get angry, get angry over the rights that have been swept away, over the people who have been murdered by oppression in the name of religion. Not statues. Ick. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/38 "2001-03-07T22:58:45Z")
Snickers, I think you’ll find that many people have been condemning the Taliban for years now, for their support of terrorism and for their absolutely dismal human rights record. This is just the latest horrible thing they’ve done, not the worst. It’s basically a symbolic issue, and the rest of the world is taking basically symbolic action over it–a lot of “condemnations” and “official outrage”, but no one’s launching air strikes over stones. The destruction of the statues does say something about the sort of people the Taliban are. As Heinrich Heine said, “Wherever they burn books, they will also, in the end, burn people.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/39 "2001-03-07T23:12:17Z")
And let’s not forget, folks, if we’re throwing around blame for the horrors inflicted by the Taliban, to save some of that blame for the shortsighted US/CIA policies that funded, armed, and trained so many Islamist rebels in Afghanistan. Now I’m certainly no admirer of the Soviets’ 1979 invasion of Afghanistan or its establishment of a puppet government there, but that’s no excuse for the CIA’s myopic “the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend” support of the militant fundamentalists. From a _Washington Report_ [review](http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/072000/0007105.html) of Ahmed Rashid’s 2000 book _Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia:_ > [@](#): > > Rashid gives a history of the Taliban, in part told through a long-time Taliban member, the governor of Kandahar, Mullah Mohammed Hassan Rehmani […] > > We are told that until the U.S.S.R. invaded Afghanistan in 1979 the Islamists barely had a foothold in Afghan society. But with money and arms from the CIA they built one that gave them tremendous clout. > > Meanwhile the “traditionalists” (who were more secular and had largely supported the Soviets) and the Islamists fought so mercilessly that by 1994 there were few leaders from either side remaining, leaving the path clear for a new wave of even more extreme Islamists—the Taliban. […] > > There is also the issue of Osama bin Laden, the dissident Saudi Arabian who is believed to be hiding in Afghanistan, and the terrorist activity he is thought to have instigated. We learn from Rashid that between 1982 and 1992 more than 35,000 Muslim radicals (including Bin Laden) from 43 Islamic countries in the Middle East, North and East Africa, Central Asia and the Far East traveled to Afghanistan to fight for the Mujaheddin (funded by the CIA) against the Soviets. It was the first time these ardent Muslims from such diverse nations had studied, trained and fought together. > > “None of the intelligence agencies involved wanted to consider the consequences of bringing together thousands of Islamic radicals from all over the world,” Rashid writes. “American citizens only woke up to the consequences when Afghanistan-trained Islamic militants blew up the World Trade Center in New York in 1993.” […] > > Rashid then makes the point that no one in the [Clinton] White House was prepared to admit that the CIA-funded Afghan jihad had spawned dozens of fundamentalist movements across the Muslim world. So the atrocities of the Taliban, and other Muslim fundamentalist groups, arose in part from the US’s determination in the 1980’s and 1990’s to undermine Soviet expansionism—at any cost. Well, this is what the cost turned out to be. Maybe this should inspire us to ask whom **else** the US is giving money to—for unimpeachably patriotic causes, of course :rolleyes:—who may turn out to be a big foreign-policy embarrassment to us. (Colombian drug war, anybody?) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802/40 "2001-03-07T23:33:08Z")
> [@](#): > > (Colombian drug war, anybody?) Or Castro? Or Noriega? Or Pinochet? Or Ortega? **Blackclaw** , whatever you say, Sparky. I’m sure the members of the Taliban leadership would be happy to listen to you explain their motives to them. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-is-destroying-a-world-wonder/56802.md?page=3)