# Afghanistan: 'Our People Have Suffered So Much...' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454 "2001-09-13T21:26:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scotticher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Scotticher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scotticher)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/41 "2001-09-14T00:23:42Z")
Please… My heart hurts so much for the people who have lost loved ones in this terrible and tragic act. But we need to realize that individuals and organizations are responsible for this horrific act. NOT necessarily governments, NOT people who just happen to live in countries who are harboring the individuals and organizations who are responsible for this. What kind of person would I be if I hated people who had NO ability to stop this? Who even had no knowledge of it? I beg of you. Place the blame where it belongs, and join me in praying for no further loss of life for innocent people. And please remember that the people in this country who just happen to share a heritage with the people who appear to be responsible for this carnage have NO responsiblity. In almost ALL cases, they are just as sick and disheartened as the rest of us. I just cannot bear the hate I have seen exhibited. This is NOT directed at anyone in this thread, but in reference to news stories about hatred directed at people in this country who had NO involvement in this horrible, horrible act. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lord\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/42 "2001-09-14T00:35:18Z")
I wouldn’t normally read such threads as this, but I’m afraid this touches me as a fear I’ve had since Tuesday’s tragedy. I said that the world changed on Tuesday. But it brought up the question of what our world and our country was going to be like after this. Would we be the strong ally of all the people of the world seeking peace, freedom and security or would we be the vengeful landlords of the world? Would we be the strength that fights for justice for everyone or will we use our power to punish the innocent along with the guilty? This tragedy will pull us together and draw out our strength. How we use that will tell if we have more character as a country, as a people, than the enemy that we are facing. If we can use our call for revenge as an excuse to kill innocent men, women and children, how can we justify our outrage against them for what they did to us? A child growing up without parents is the same no matter whether it is Muslim, Christian, Jew, whether Iraqi, Afghani, or American. How anyone can advocate this is beyond me. We’ve had the capability to turn almost any part of this globe into a parking lot for much of my life. We haven’t been sitting back waiting for a good excuse to do it, though. I hope that the hatred subsides soon. I want to see the good that can come from tragedy, not the evil of revenge. Jim ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/43 "2001-09-14T00:48:16Z")
If ya see people heckling Middle Eastern people, please do something. You don’t help your cause any by standing around. ---
**Author:** ![Spider\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Spider\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spider_Woman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/44 "2001-09-14T00:50:46Z")
The [Taliban](http://www.afghan-info.com/TALIBAN.HTM) is an extremist regime which rules its people with an iron an bloody fist. Women are subjugated as near-slaves, and this fundamentalist government has a chokehold over its people. If we indiscriminately bomb Afghanistan, we will kill many innocent men, women, and children who have already suffered much. There have been e-mails circulating for months urging Americans to contact the United Nations about the plight of women under the Taliban regime. [Here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21488-2001Sep12.html) is an article entitled “I’m Not the Enemy” by a Muslim American journalist with the Washington Post On-Line. I think it is well worth reading. Please let us not answer senseless death with more senseless death. Find the people responsible, and let justice be dealt them through the world courts. Don’t let these madmen turn us into monsters like themselves. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/45 "2001-09-14T00:56:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by NotMrKnowItAll \* > > \*\*May I direct you to the relavent articles of the Geneva Convention: > > > > [Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War](http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm) > > Sorry, blood lust is not allowed. \*\* > > Civilians on four passenger planes are hijacked and killed in the murder of at least 10,000 other civilians? Sorry, did anyone tell the terrorists that “blood lust was not allowed”?\*\* You don’t think the Taliban was a signatory of the Geneva Convention, do you? We were. We agreed to those terms and, if the word of the US is to mean anything, we must abide by them - if only to avoid becoming just like the terrorists who did this. It’s hard to bomb a country back to the dark ages when they’re already there. ---
**Author:** ![zyzzyva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@zyzzyva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zyzzyva)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/46 "2001-09-14T01:11:55Z")
I’m extremely disappointed in you, **Zenster**. You’ve always been rational in the past, but this is just obscene. By attacking Afghanistan and its people, all we’d be doing would be stooping to the level of terrorists ourselves. I have NO sympathy for the Taliban or for bin Laden, whether they’re responsible for this or not. I do, however, have a tremendous amount of sympathy for the Afghani people. They did NOT bring this upon themselves, nor did they bring the Taliban upon themselves. And as [this](http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/09/13/bin_laden/index.html) article tells, there’s a good chance that the Taliban has no idea where bin Laden is at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/47 "2001-09-14T01:13:07Z")
Let’s drop a few questions, here. I see people talking about the horror, the outrage, the immorality of attacking Afghani men, women, and children who have no say in their government. In 1941, the average Japanese citizen had no say in what the military junta decided to do. Going to war with Japan and Germany meant killing lots of women and children who had no say in what their government was doing. We have stated that this was an act of war. And should Afghanistan continue to harbor bin Laden _and his organization_, then we **must** accept that as a declaration of war against us. For so long as _any_ country is willing to harbor terrorists, that country is declaring that they will strike at us with terror. Maybe not directly, maybe they will not fund or sponsor the terrorism, but by providing a safe harbor, they encourage and support those who would continue to kill our civilians. If Afghanistan does not agree to surrender bin Laden and take arms against his organization, we **must** accept that as a declaration of terrorist war by Afghanistan upon us. And therefore, we must fight Afghanistan. And Afghani civilians will die. And Americans who otherwise would have been civilians will die. And you cannot convince me that either state is more sorrowfull than the other, and you cannot convince me that the poverty of the Afghanis excuses them for hiding bin Laden, and you cannot convince me that there is some victory that does not involve the complete destruction of bin Laden’s operation. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/48 "2001-09-14T01:18:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rasa \* > \*\*Solution 1: > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Beadalin_ > > **As has already been pointed out, the alternative to bombing is to find those responsible and punish them.** \*\*Those that are responsible are the people who have bred this insanity, not us who shall cure it. Our previous cruise missle attack went unheeded. What makes you think that handing over a few people, bin Laden himself included will provide any sort of surcease? Enough of his followers still exist whereby, if a strong enough message is not sent, there will be no effect, That message is violence and in extreme quantities. Nothing else will get through to them. [QUOTE] Solution 2: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Persephone_ > \*\*I say, first let’s prove, beyond any reasonable doubt, that bin Laden is behind this. > > Then, let’s ask for him. Nicely. Give them a minute or two to either a) deliver him to us, or b) give us his address so we can go get him ourselves.\*\* > > Rinse, lather, repeat. All viable solutions. Again, prosecution of bin Laden will do nothing to abate this situation. Terrorist countries must be made to suffer for their complicity in ways that will permanently etch a fear of further participation in their minds forever. It worked for Japan and Germany and it will work for any and all Taliban governments. It may take time but I would rather see our military resources given over to this sort of occupation than to have to do mop up actions every five years or so. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zenster_ > **Has anyone noticed that many of the most admired people at these boards are advocating even harsher measures than I promote? There is a reason for this, try to consider why this is so.** > [@](#): > > I’d love to a cite, because if the “admired people” are of a differing opinion than I, I guess it’s time for me to change my mind. :rolleyes: \*\* Roll your eyes all you want. I think it is safe to say that **Scylla** is a much admired and well accepted persona at these boards. In Great Debates, you will find his thread advocating a **Nuclear Attack** of Afghanistan. Howevermuch I might seem to be some bloodthirsty warmonger, even I have my limits and that is one of them. However, the Taliban should be left to twist in the breeze by allowing them to remain uncertain about just what exactly our response _will_ be. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\ ***Zenster** , was that you I saw on Pineapple street? With your friends? Surrounding those two Arab women with strollers? > > It was you! You and your friends were calling them “towel heads” and “sand niggers”. You even threw your Snapple at them. It made you laugh when the open bottle bounced off one of the cowering women and your Peach Tea spilled all over her baby. > I will refrain from calling you what I think you are, since this is MIPSIMS and not The Pit. \*\* As for you **BigGirl** , please take your racist accusations and cram them with walnuts. Your baseless speculation as to my own personal philosophy discounts all of your points in manifold ways. I have been tear-gassed more than once while marching for equal rights. You are despicable in your pathetic playing of the race card where it most certainly does not belong. Feel free to open a pit thread you ignoramus. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/49 "2001-09-14T01:20:31Z")
Well **John** , there is a difference between > [@](#): > > Suffered enough?" The suffering has yet to begin. Maybe when we are done with them the Afghani people will understand the true meaning of suffering. Until then, they can hold their collective breaths while they wait for the other shoe to drop. and > [@](#): > > If Afghanistan does not agree to surrender bin Laden and take arms against his organization, we must accept that as a declaration of terrorist war by Afghanistan upon us. And therefore, we must fight Afghanistan. And Afghani civilians will die. And Americans who otherwise would have been civilians will die. War is one thing, killing innocent people for some good old fashion bloodlusting revenge is another. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/50 "2001-09-14T01:30:41Z")
> [@](#): > > In 1941, the average Japanese citizen had no say in what the military junta decided to do. Going to war with Japan and Germany meant killing lots of women and children who had no say in what their government was doing. The “average citizen” in Japan and Germany during WWII did support their governments, supplying men to the armed forces and cheering their initial victories. Today, the ideologically extreme wing of the Taleban controls the country with an army that is more than 1/3 outside mercenaries (generally paid for by bin Laden) and the Taleban zealot at the top of the heap, Mullah Omar, punishes “his own” people for perceived insults against a brand of Islam that they never practiced. After more than 20 years of war, there are few people who have ever had an opportunity to actually voice an opinion as to how the government is run. If (as is likely) bin Laden is the culprit and Omar is sheltering him, then I have no problem going after the Taleban leadership to compel them to surrender bin Laden. Calling for the murder of Afghanis who are already oppressed for not having succeeded in overthrowing their oppressors is the EQUIVALENT of what bin Laden launched here. And, as a practical matter, if you decide to lay waste to an area populated by innocents, I guarantee that any survivors will become the bin Ladens to murder your children or grandchildren. I’m sure they will thank you. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/51 "2001-09-14T01:31:16Z")
What a lot of people aren’t grasping is that there are times when “right” is wrong and “wrong” is right – or better yet, when apparent “right” and “wrong” are ethical equivalents. An immense gray area on all sides of an issue: an environment in which immoral behavior is often a cold necessity. I cannot see a resolution to this crisis which does not involve the collateral deaths of innocents on all sides. Whether those deaths are “right” or “wrong” is not particularly relevant to anyone but some who will rest safely distant from what eventual front lines are established. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/52 "2001-09-14T01:40:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > > As for you **BigGirl** , please take your racist accusations and cram them with walnuts. Your baseless speculation as to my own personal philosophy discounts all of your points in manifold ways. I have been tear-gassed more than once while marching for equal rights. You are despicable in your pathetic playing of the race card where it most certainly does not belong. Feel free to open a pit thread you ignoramus. \*\* I only have your words to base my “speculation” on. So here are a few of them. Tell me how I should have interpreted them. > [@](#): > > Whether or not the Afghani people were directly involved with these acts, only severe retribution will make it clear that there is a price to be paid for having this sort of vermin within your borders. Cry out all you want that the Afghani people did not know. > [@](#): > > The Afghani people sided with their Taliban government by allowing them to rule without mass rebellion. Their suffering will be the direct result of their willingness to abide such willful ignorance. > [@](#): > > Participation or indirect support of any terrorist activities will result in direct ruin of your civilization. This sounds to me like unabashed racism. Kill them all, that’ll teach 'em. This is not what you are saying? Then maybe you should explain yourself. Or don’t. If you don’t you’ll excuse me for thinking you a racist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/53 "2001-09-14T01:40:37Z")
> [@](#): > > collateral deaths As horrible as it is to simply be a “collateral death,” I am sure that there will be such. I regret this and I would hope that we would do what we could to minimize such deaths, knowing that we cannot prevent them all. (The French, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, and Danes all suffered collateral deaths during WWII. It is horrible, but it is sometimes inescapable.) The OP did not address collateral deaths. The OP (and his few supporters) have simply said, > [@](#): > > Maybe when we are done with them the Afghani people will understand the true meaning of suffering. Until then, they can hold their collective breaths while they wait for the other shoe to drop. > > An example must be made of the Afghani nation so that any other country even contemplating such dastardly deeds will stop in their tracks and reconsider. There is nothing “collateral” in such calls. ---
**Author:** ![Scotticher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Scotticher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scotticher)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/54 "2001-09-14T01:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > \*\*If ya see people heckling Middle Eastern people, please do something. You don’t help your cause any by standing around. \*\* I cannot see any even REMOTE possibility that I would not support ANY person who was being heckled. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/55 "2001-09-14T01:43:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Those that are responsible are the people who have bred this insanity, not us who shall cure it. Our previous cruise missle attack went unheeded. What makes you think that handing over a few people, bin Laden himself included will provide any sort of surcease? Enough of his followers still exist whereby, if a strong enough message is not sent, there will be no effect, That message is violence and in extreme quantities. Nothing else will get through to them. People are responsible for their own actions. Unless you want to say that America is fully responsible for the terrorist attack due to the handling of the Middle East. I wonder where you get the idea that nothing but extreme violence will get through to them? I guess thats just a part of terrorism, the belief that violence is the only answer. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/56 "2001-09-14T01:47:25Z")
**Moderator’s note:** Everybody’s rubbed raw and wrung out from the tragedy that just keeps mounting. But please keep the discussion civil, folks. _Good people can disagree._ It’s even more important now to remember that–and act on it. Talk, discuss, argue but stay respectful of one another’s right to disagree. Veb ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/57 "2001-09-14T01:49:49Z")
This is for Zenster and all of the people who agree with him: When various Muslim leaders call America “the Great Satan,” they’re thinking about guys **LIKE YOU !!!** What you’re advocating is the wholesale slaughter of people for no other reason than that they live in the same country as a terrorist. Finding the people who actually bear responsability for these attacks is fine, but randomly bombing a city in the hopes of getting the guy you want is not justice in any meaningful sense of the word. It is terrorism, no more moral or justified then what Bin Laden did last Tuesday. I’m praying as hard as I can that there are cooler heads than yours controlling our military. Most Americans consider themselves Christians. If nothing else, this event is showing us who the REAL Christians are. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/58 "2001-09-14T01:50:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Our previous cruise missle attack went unheeded. Not really. It was the robot attack on Afghanistan in which bombs fell with no warning for a purpose that was only announced afterward (since we had not asked the Afghanis to turn over bin Laden prior to the attacks and few Afghanis were aware that he _might_ have been in the country), that raised the anger of enough people that the pragmatic arm of the Taleban (who had _not_ supported bin Laden) was forced to relenquish control to the ideological arm (that bin Laden supports). Effectively, by trying to “send a message” in the least effective way, we prepared the way for the ascendancy of the nob that we now want to punish Afghanis for suffering under. ---
**Author:** ![Scotticher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Scotticher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scotticher)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/59 "2001-09-14T01:51:44Z")
Thank you, **Veb.** You are, as always, a voice of reason in an insane world. Scotti ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454/60 "2001-09-14T01:54:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*Well **John** , there is a difference between > > > [@](#): > > > > Suffered enough?" The suffering has yet to begin. Maybe when we are done with them the Afghani people will understand the true meaning of suffering. Until then, they can hold their collective breaths while they wait for the other shoe to drop. > > and > > > [@](#): > > > > If Afghanistan does not agree to surrender bin Laden and take arms against his organization, we must accept that as a declaration of terrorist war by Afghanistan upon us. And therefore, we must fight Afghanistan. And Afghani civilians will die. And Americans who otherwise would have been civilians will die. > > War is one thing, killing innocent people for some good old fashion bloodlusting revenge is another. \*\* Thank you, **Biggirl** , I was going to reply to **John’s** post, but you did it far better than I ever could. **John,** I’m not naive. I realise that in order to punish those responsible it may very well come to war. And innocent lives are _always_ lost in war. I understand that and, while it does sadden me, can accept that as a neccessary evil. But, as **Biggirl** pointed out, that is far different than the advocation of genocide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-our-people-have-suffered-so-much/81454.md?page=4)