Afghanistan: 'Our People Have Suffered So Much...'

Great Debates
61

I would like to praise John’s post as being one of the most well thought out. What has gone on in New York is nothing short of a declaration of war. We are obliged to respond in kind. I do not advocate revenge. I do not advocate wholesale slaughter. I do advocate calculated reprisal in such a fashion that anyone considering a repetition of last Tuesday’s events will think more than twice before proceeding.

The Taliban have repeatedly shown themselves to be beyond the pale in their dogma and acts within the world community. The Afghani people have seemingly accepted this turn of events. Such religious complacency is the breeding ground for exactly the sort of horrors we have witnessed. Any honorable worshiper of the Koran knows well enough that the Taliban represent little if any of the faith’s true tenets.

This is not a competition, this is no game. This is a life and death struggle against the naked hand of evil in the modern world.

62

I can’t speak for anyone else in this thread, but I’m not talking about a solution to an act of war. The war wasn’t declared by Afghanistan. It was declared by a small band of militants. It may be large by comparison to other groups, but nowhere near the scale of the country of Japan who were powerful enough to be considered capable of defeating us.

You aren’t talking about solving a problem, you are talking about killing people. There’ll be innocent people killed, no doubt, but to target them is incomprehensible to me.

What I’m talking about is racism, bigotry, genocide maybe. The sentiment seems to be to annihilate the Afghan people because of a criminal in their midst. People in this country are striking out against mosgues, against anyone that looks middle eastern. This is just hate.

All Muslims didn’t do this. All Afghanis didn’t do this.

When we find a person guilty of murder, we don’t execute their parents, spouse and children. We hold the ones that committed the crime accountable, not everyone associated. It’s the rule of law.

Even in war killing innocent people has to be justified. We aren’t barbarians anymore. Hopefully, we’ve seen the brutality of wars and have gained something from them.

Focus your hate on the ones that need it, don’t just shoot in the dark.

Jim

63

So… why have they been at civil war for the past 20 years?

64

If it should come to war with Afghanistan, then it should be soldier fighting soldier, army fighting army. It is the inevitable, unavoidable tragedy that people who had no choice in the war, no ability to stop the war, would be fighting with us if they were able will be killed. Young mothers, babies, wide-eyed five year olds, grandparents will all be killed.

But It Must Not Be Our Goal!

To do so makes us worse than the terrorists. We are the beacon of freedom; one of the most humane countries in the world; one of the most intelligent and egalitarian countries in the world, and one of the most powerful. Terrorism is the tool of a person who is too weak to fight in a fair fight; it is the refuge of someone who knows he is wrong and that he can’t count on the world community to support him.

And it is the action of an immature mind. You hurt me so I’m going to hurt you back. To see how that mindset works study the clan fueds of Scotland and Edward the First sometime.

Fight Afghanistan if it is necessary. But, please, let’s not bomb it out of existance.

65

The thing that concerns me is that the US has a different idea of what “justice” looks like than the Middle East does. So we do something, such as convicting and executing bin Laden, and we’re happy with that, and the Middle East isn’t impressed at all. These are people who publically execute criminals like drug users and dealers or prostitutes. There would be no lesson. And although the head of the snake is cut off, two more grow in it’s place. How do we balance our need to forestall further terrorist action with the need to keep our national identity as a fair and just people?

66

Actually, I believe we do hold the “associated” people accountable, and it’s called “aiding and abetting” or “acting as an accessory”. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if a man commits murder and then is knowingly hidden and supported by his parents, for example, his parents also stand a good chance of going to jail.

67

Please, someone who truly understands the mechanics of war, explain some things to me.

bin Laden is not going to voluntarily surrender. That leaves us in the position of having to ask for help in locating him. Now, if the Taliban won’t help, what then?

I’m listening to MSNBC now, and a little while ago, a CIA agent said that they were simply going to have to enlist the aid of, IIRC, “some folks with dirt under their arms,” meaning that they are going to have to rely on terrorists to get them the information that they need. I understand this, and at this stage of the game, I can’t say that it’s a bad thing. Terrorists know where other terrorists are, and hey, if consorting with a few gets us the information we need to find bin Laden instead of having to bomb the whole country, well, I’m all for it.

I also heard Brokaw say that the ban on assassinations has effectively been lifted. I’m thinking that this has got to be a good thing. This gives us a little more freedom to target specific individuals and their supporters, instead of an entire country, right? Or am I wrong about that? (If I am, please tell me–I honestly do not know).

And if war is declared, I mean, actual war, declared by Congress, what is to prevent them from fighting here? What is to prevent them from coming over here and bombing on a much larger scale? I mean, when you stop and think about it, they destroyed the WTC. Yes, thousands of lives were lost–but New York City is still standing. So is Washington DC, and so is the rest of the country. What could make that situation change? Why wouldn’t a full-scale war be fought here, in the USA?

My questions are lame, I’m sure. But all I know about war is that one of my grandfathers saw combat in WWII, and the other was a DJ in Armed Forces Radio.

68

Genocide! That was the word I was looking for. The kill-em-all solution is nothing less than genocide. War may be necessary to get Bin Ladin. As much as it pains me to have any more innocent people die, some innocent Afghanis probably will before we can stop this man that is endangering our nation’s people. But specifically targeting innocent people is beyond any possible moral justification. It doesn’t matter which Dopers back that plan, or even if President Bush does (and I hope he’s more responsible than that). Genocide is genocide.

69

Just as an aside, wouldn’t an honorable Muslim cut your head off for advocating idolatry (i.e., worshiping the Koran itself, rather than Allah)?

70

One of the things I’ve always admired about the US has been its commitment to justice.

Take down Osama bin Laden, if that’s where the evidence leads; take down those who supported, harboured and abetted him and his plans, up to and including the Taliban, if their involvement is proved; take down those who assisted in the attack and are still alive. Those who are guilty pay for their crimes; that’s justice.

Indiscriminate, wholesale slaughter - bombing a country back to the stone age - is not.

Hearing the Taliban say, “Have mercy, our people have suffered much” turns my stomach, because they themselves have been responsible for so much of that suffering. But to attack a whole country, based on the actions of a fraction of its population, is not the answer.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.”

Nietzsche had the right idea.

71

As posted by me in another thread…

By breaking a people’s spirit and stripping their pride, we are no better tham the poeple who perpetrated this act.
What right do we have to say anything about their beliefs or pride. We need to remember that america is not entirely innocent in this affair.
We have been interfering in middle east politics for many years, we have been staunchly pro Israelian and we have always
manuevered to keep our oil interests safe. It is no wonder that many middle easterners resent us.

If we have a different view of western society, maybe it’s because we aren’t paying enough attention to the behavior of our government in the middle east.

I hold that we as a people are directly responsible for the actions of our government.
Yes it is difficult to speak out and make a difference as an individual but we as a people have been too lax for
too long in monitoring the behavior of our government.
When we in a “Democratic” society are more interested in what sitcom is on than we are in what our government
is doing, we are at least in part culpable for the results of those actions.
This is in no way meant to imply justification for terrorism or these acts, it is merely a point that
we need to make sure our side of the street is clean before we go haring off to kill people and destroy a culture.
I am simply stating that if we want to prevent this from happening in the future,
we had better start by taking a hard look at our own country’s behavior.

72

Thank you, Osama. This is, of course, the exact logic that bin Laden uses to justify his attacks on the U.S.

The U.S. has supported the Israelis and has interfered in the wars between Iran and Iraq, resulting in the deaths of many faithful Muslims–among other events: shooting down civilian airliners, supporting the evil Saud regime, and occupying and desecrating the land of Mecca and Medina. The American people have tolerated their government’s actions in this regard for decades. Therefore, the American people are, obviously, at war against the Faithful and, as such, are legitimate targets.

Sorry, your claims that the Afghanis have “accepted” the Taleban are a direct embrace of ignorance regarding the actual history of Afghanistan.

73

We Americans are not in any way responsible for the cowardly and evil acts of terrorists. That America looks after it’s own best interests and is pretty darn good at it, is no justification for killing 10,000 New Yorkers.

If we have to fight a ground war in Afganistan to get the people responsible for this atrocity, then I am quite willing to put on fatigues and get those bastards (Whether I am able is another question.)

Nothing America has done merits driving a plane into the WTC or the Pentagon.

74

My above super-italicized post was directed at dentarthurdent. I now return you to your properly coded thread.

75

Ya know, I agree with the OP. Everybody’s saying, well the Afghani people had nothing to do with what happened. Well, the thousands of people who died Tuesday didn’t have anyhting to do with our government either–even the pentagon people were simple soldiers.

THe purpose of was is to bend a nation to your will–in this case have it stop supporting terrorism. will people suffer–yes. Maybe it will make them re-think their form of government. A coup failed in Russia 10 years ago because the peopel wouldn’t support it. Maybe, in this case the AFghanis will see the anamalistic barbarian scum that leads them for what they are

76

as I said in my previous post

We have absolutely no business dictating, maneuvering, or strongarming other countries for “our own best interests”.

we would not be there if it werent for our oil interests.

The propaganda machine is in full effect right now, repeating these horrible images, telling us that this was a declaration of war. All to justify our influence in a place we have no business being.

We will not remove the hatred that many middle easterners harbor for america by going in and killing them. This will only serve to polarize them further.

77

To live is to take sides.

There are no innocents in this world. If you draw a breath of air or eat a meal, you are as guilty of the next person of being on one side or another. We Americans are guilty of supporting a free society that separates church from state, gives untrammeled liberty to women and men alike and provides for freedom of speech like few other places on earth.

The very existence of our nation serves as a goad to narrow-minded theocratic governments. Americans will always be persecuted as some variant of “The Great Satan” as long as there are dogmatic people in the world. If we perceive democratic free enterprise to be worth defending, then we must do so unashamedly. There is no possibility of descending to the level of such cold blooded murderers. Premeditated homicide is the only way to do so. War has been declared upon us, be it informally or whatever. There is a nexus for the hostilities, plus there is extremely credible evidence and prior pattern to these activities. Other, less drastic measures have failed to abate the situation. It is time to escalate the level of consequence for our adversary.

It is patently clear that no superior vision of reality is being argued. The misogynistic doctrine, not to mention illegality of media and musical instruments alone should indicate the repressive nature of what is in store in a Taliban ruled world. Their fundamentalist approach vocally supports the utilization of violence. Their own doctrine had declared a Jihad.

Is not last Tuesday not a crystal clear embodiment of their self-declared Jihad? What more do you want? By not rising up and declaring the utter invalidity of the Taliban government, the Afghani people have given it their tacit approval. They have taken their side in this matter. The hyper-repressive nature of the Taleban government should have stirred enough noticable unrest in the Afghani population by now. Instead, there is only a small fraction fighting for repossession of the country. This acquiescence by the Afghani people serves as notice to anti-terrorist nations that such methods are accepted and supported by them.

To live is to take sides. Those who think that they are outside the envelope of responsibility for their own government’s actions are seriously deluded. Despite arguements that the Taliban did not directly orchestrate last Tuesday’s slaughter, they provided knowing safe haven and definite protection to Osama bin Laden’s group. Their complicity is sufficient for them to foot the bill as well.

To live is to take sides. We Americans continue to go to war in order to defend new democracies wherever they may be. The flipside of this coin is that we also strike against repression and wholesale slaughter wherever it manifests also. By our own words we are obliged to ensure that this world need not cower as belligerent thugs try to hold sway. Without being able to speak in any qualified fashion for this country’s veterans, I nonetheless feel sure that many of them would be outraged to see anything less than a severe and decisive response to this atrocity.

There are no innocents in this world, just varying degrees of involvement. If I cannot claim our civilians to be innocent victims of mass murder, then I see no distinction needed when it comes to the Afghani people. They have made their beds.

78

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Biggirl *
**

Nitpick, here. Which “race” are we speaking about? “Afghani” isn’t a race; it’s a nationality.

79

I am not interested in removing middle-eastern hatred of America. They are entitled to their own opinions. I am interested in protecting myself and my country.

Do not confuse my stance with “America, right or wrong”. When my government does something I do not agree with I am not quiet. I’ll not bore you with my long list of civil activities, but believe me I am not a shrinking violet when it comes to voicing my views here and IRL.

All that being said: I do not and will not accept terrorist acts on my soil. I do not care what motivated these criminals. Just as there is a difference between war and genocide, so is there a difference between legitimate protest and the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocents.

I like to think of my nation as just and right-thinking, strong yet fair. If bringing these criminals to justice means fighting a war in Afghanistan, then so be it. Do not expect me to cover my country in the guilt of those terrorist monsters.

80

There is a difference between Afghanistan now and the Axis nations during WWII. Germany and Japan during WWII were advanced industrialized nation-states wholly mobilized for total warfare against the United States and its allies. The German and Japanese peoples served in the armies of the Nazis and the Japanese militarists; those who didn’t fight worked in the factories which provided weapons and supplies to those armies. To a large extent we had no choice but to make war on their total societies; their total societies were making war on us.

Afghanistan in 2001 isn’t an advanced industrialized nation-state; it’s an anarchic nearly Stone Age wasteland dominated by religious fanatics with guns. There are no ball-bearing factories or oil refineries for us to bomb there. There are no air bases or missile silos. There are no railroads.

By all means, if Osama Bin Laden is behind this, kill him. Kill the other members of his organization and the members of the various terrorist cells. If the Taliban won’t cooperate, if they are sheltering the perpetrators of this, kill the Taliban’s leaders too. Kill the terrorists however we have to–lift the ban on assassinations. If the Taliban or the terrorists have identifiable military bases, bomb them. To the extent the Taliban or Osama Bin Laden’s organization have “command, control, and communications”, disrupt them. Hunt down their bank accounts.

In doing all this, some innocent bystanders will be killed or hurt or have their homes and businessnes destroyed. To have to accept that innocent people may die when we do what we have to do is necessary. But don’t try to kill innocent people, don’t plan on killing innocent people.

Our propaganda always says “We are not at war with the people of [fill in the blank here], but only with the evil dictator who rules [fill in the blank here].” That really is the case here. The Taliban seem to be more something which has been inflicted on Afghanistan, after two decades of foreign occupation, internal civil war, and all around carnage. Make war on the people who have declared war on us, and, because of the way they choose to fight their “war”, treat them no better than common criminals when we do it. But don’t become like them in the process.