I have not said that there shouldn’t be military retaliation. I’ve merely said that any such retaliation shouldn’t be taken against innocent civilians.
The rest of my paragraph from my above quote was:
I’ve also said (in this thread):
That’s my whole point. Accidental collateral damage (a term I hate, by the way) is one thing, purposeful collateral, in my eyes, is murder and brings us down to the terrorists’ level.
Why do you think that you have more? If you think that the terrorists wont enjoy watching their own cities reduced to rubble as much as ours then I don’t think you understand how the terrorist mind works.
I am not afraid of death either. The idea of my own premature death and suffering doesen’t bother me at all on an emotional level. I think that most terrorists would enjoy the chance to be tortured to see if they could prove stronger than the torture.
They wont be the source and cause of the surrounding people’s ruination. America will.
Showing that Americans use terrorism will not make it unpopular. It will only spread its popularity. Nations will see a world power destroying civilians of other countries to protect themselves and do their best to copy America.
I was under the impression that you wanted them to say. “Those Americans are terrorists who have no regard for human life, I guess the terrorists aren’t so bad after all.”
Try looking at the situation logically instead of emotionally. Personally I don’t take lightly the 2.5+ million Americans who will die this year for various reasons. How you die doesen’t matter when your dead.
Zenster, I haven’t the skills to be in this forum. However, I ask you to read the article I’m going to link. It’s written by an Afghani-American.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html
Quotes from the link:
Zenster: Actually you missed me in your rundown of proferred alternative solutions. Back on page two of this thread I linked to a post by Edwino in another thread, that was primarily addressing the Israel/Palestinian conundrum, but in which he made brief mention of the U.S. as well.
In a nutshell I favor military action that targets specific terrorist groups, combined with a ‘Marshall Plan’ type approach to helping nations like Afghanistan rebuild themselves on more democratic, prosperous lines. Terrorism proceeds from repression, ignorance, and poverty. Eliminating ( or at least work at reducing, since you can never have perfection ) these factors and you hamstring the capacity of terrorist organizations to recruit and sustain themselves.
A very expensive and long-term proposition. But a worthwhile one, IMHO.
Here’s an observation which may affect how solutions and alternate solutions are brainstormed:
I can easily envision that during a war, terrorists within Afghanistan will hide in large population centers. This tactic will ensure that a maximum number of civilians, unfortunately, will be killed in any actions. The terrorists and Taleban will then take plenty of film of the carnage and broadcast it to the world and loudly bewail our callousness, before they hightail it to the next city and repeat the process.
This will be a different kind of war and we need some different thinkers to plan our tactics.
It’s that simple.
You may cry out against jingoistic thinking all you want, but it is literally them or us.
For one of the first times in our history we are now confronted with a sworn enemy who is willing to use the most horrific means imaginable to destroy Western civilization. Our continued existance is an affront to their sensibilities and we are to be killed at their convenience. Do not delude yourselves about the intentions of these maniacs. They want us all dead, they do not care how. If they were in possession of a nuclear device I am sure that they would have already used it. When they get one they will. We must prevent that by any means possible.
We are not dealing with the Nazis or the Communists. We are dealing with a bunch of madmen who have the avowed purpose of destroying civilization. Their quest is for a repressive theocratic regime the likes of which has never been seen before. Not one of us is safe until these maggots are exterminated like the vermin that they are. Nothing short of premature death will dissuade these cretins from their sworn crusade. And it is death they must be given, not soon, but immediately. They have demonstrated their willingness to have innocent people slaughtered like sheep.
What makes you think that they will not do their level best to ensure that the Afghani people are not also slaughtered like sheep in our quest to eliminate the Taleban? I can most certainly reassure you that they will. These excrement know no limits in their savage campaign of murdering anyone that it serves their purpose to. Nothing that we could possibly do will ever match the level of depravity that these thugs have already attained. Somehow, we must find them and kill all of them. I do not know of a simple way to do this. Assasinations are too time consuming and put at risk vital assets that we need for our defense.
It is for this reason that I have continually challenged everyone in this thread to deliver a better solution to this problem. There is no method short of obliteration that will deliver the results we need to guarantee the continuing existence of civilization. This is not an intellectual thought problem to be toyed with after dinner holding a wine glass in your hand. This is war and the first genuine threat to the modern world since the Nazis.
We are confronted with our own extinction unless we act swiftly and decisively. The murder of millions more await those who would pause to negotiate with these bastards. Collateral casualties mean absolutely nothing compared to the need to exterminate these psychopaths and exterminate them now. As I said, come up with some quick solutions or consider yourself disqualified in this matter. There is no time to waste dithering around. Each and every one of our lives are hanging in the balance.
Until this day, I never thought that I could possibly feel this way. But a line was crossed last Tuesday the steps of which can never be retraced. The genie is out of the bottle. We must command the situation and do it with all the authority of this world’s greatest military power. Only a fool would be satisfied to have a single one of the Taleban left alive when we are finished. We must act now to eliminate this murderous element from society. We have encountered the human equivalent of the Ebola strain in mankind, this is the flesh eating virus of civilization. We must sterilize the earth of these bloodthirsty blackguards without delay.
Zenster I think you need to talk to somebody about the anger you are feeling. 
You are not seeing anger. You are seeing the product of rational thought applied to dealing with completely irrational people. How can you deal with these sort of madmen? Suggestions please.
I almost wish I was merely feeling some sort of murderous rage so that I could get over it. But I am not. We are confronted with a certain and deadly threat to all modern civilization. These monsters are attempting to destroy thousands of years of progress. We must not let them.
We must accept the fact that there is going to be a lot of blood spilled in this campaign and begin it at once. Hesitation upon our part only betrays our own ends. The resolve needed for what is to come is almost a foreign concept in our own tolerant land. Any tolerance of these blood thirsty murderers is merely allowing them further opportunity to slay more of us.
If we killed every single Taleban, and Osama bin Ladin and all his associates in Afghanistan with an incredibly surgical military strike that did not even injure a single civilian, Terrorism would not be set back a single day.
Afghanistan is a backwater, of no interest, or importance to anyone, other than as a hole to hide in. Carpet bombing it won’t change the realities of terrorism at all. If every terrorist in the entire country wore black hats, and the rest of the population wore white hats, and we went through killing our enemies, still the next day terrorism would continue.
We have not even been willing to actually declare war, in Congress against terrorism, because we are not willing to admit publicly who that war will be against. Half the tin pot dictators in the world are half a step away from being terrorists, and we have made them friends, and closed our eyes to their murders. Israel, and Ireland are on the list, if we are going to bomb everywhere that terrorists are tolerated. The US is the primary source of funding for those two, so we have to bomb ourselves, as well. We know that there are organizations in our own country that advocate, and execute terrorist acts. Who have we declared war against?
This whole war against terrorism is pointless unless we actually mean to promulgate it in boardrooms and stock markets at the same time we do it in battlefields and boondocks. Billions are spent on terrorism, every year. Those billions don’t come from the poor. The poor don’t have billions, remember? The people who have been identified so far are not even from the nations everyone talks about having a war with. Egypt? Saudi Arabia? United Arab Emirates? This is not a country we have declared war upon, it is an undefined mob of zealots.
What we need are international laws that make support of terrorists itself a capital crime. If that doesn’t include Irish pubs in the US, it is just another bullshit law. If we are not going to be willing to demand extradition, trial, and execution of Saudis, Americans, French, and Russians, at the same time we seek to kill the Taleban, then we are just stirring up a new generation of suicide bombers. Does anyone think that the next charismatic lunatic won’t be able to find a country to hide in, if he can still get the billions to pay for it?
We have the technology to economically ruin any individual we know to be a supporter of terrorism, even if he is not in our legal jurisdiction. Let’s do it, and do it fast, and repeatedly, and make no distinction between the murderers who pay for this, and the bankers who hide the money. Then let’s use the money to bribe informers all over the world to make terrorism an ineffectual and useless way to die. Yes, we should mount covert, and overt military force options at times, when achievable goals can be determined, and the concept of “safe haven” can be eliminated. But large-scale military maneuvers against guerrilla forces are the last choice of strategy and even then, a proven looser.
Nuclear weapons, carpet bombing, and division strength military invasions won’t change anything but the names of the terrorists. All too likely, the name will be US. We have a just and reasonable rage. It is not a blanket excuse for mass murder. It can be the impetus to create a passion for justice in the whole world, if we are willing to make the long and tedious task our national goal. We have the wrath, and the means to express that wrath. Indeed we could destroy any small faction of the world which chose to stand in our way. Perhaps even the entire Islamic world. But that would turn us into that which we despise.
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.” ~ Sun-tzu ~
Feynn, it is impossible for us to become terrorists. There is no need or reason for us to operate in such a fashion. Ruthless retaliation for the atrocity perpetrated against us is not terrorism, it is sound military doctrine. We are not monsters for ensuring that a price is paid for complicity in any way shape or form with such a cowardly act. We will not become a devil by doing so and our image cannot become any less than it already is in the eyes of many fundamentalists already.
We will not be engaging in an unprovoked attack upon their population, as they did. We will be demonstrating the price for complicity in terrorism. It is something that needs to be done and done sooner than later.
Eliminating bin Laden shall prove next to impossible until we accept the fact that he will maximize civilian casualties no mater what route we take. It is for that reason that we must not flinch in wreaking total devastation in our pursuit of him.
I did not mean to ignore your posts and hope that our differences do not prevent us from respecting each other. I just do not envision any simple alternatives in rooting out this pestilence upon humanity. Believe me, I wish that there were some bloodless way to achieve this, I just do not see one. There is no reason why we should sacrifice more American lives trying to prosecute a ground assault in order to mop the Taleban and Osama bin Laden. Too many American lives were lost last Tuesday to merit putting our good fighting people in harm’s way.
Swift and violent retribution from the air is one of the only operable solutions that presents itself. It is quite obvious that the terrorists either overlooked the ramifications of their acts or intend for there to be maximum loss of life for all around them. We do not have the means of avoiding their ends and should not shoulder any blame for their diseased goals. The needless deaths of many Afghani people will be their final legacy to them and not ours.
I fully advocate going in and spending billions to restore Afghanistan after the Taleban and bin Laden are wiped from the face of the earth. But first these terrorists must be exterminated instantly and all others put on notice that they are next.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Triskadecamus *
**
Half the tin pot dictators in the world are half a step away from being terrorists, and we have made them friends, and closed our eyes to their murders…This whole war against terrorism is pointless unless we actually mean to promulgate it in boardrooms and stock markets at the same time …
[QUOTE]
You are absolutely right.
And we won’t do it.
Zenster, first of all you insist that killing off Osama bin Laden and destroying his organization would not significantly damage the ability of terrorists to inflict damage on the United States. Like it or not, bin Laden is the driving force behind every major act of anti-American terrorism in the last decade, except the Oklahoma City bombing. He provided the money and ran the organization of the embassy bombings, the U.S.S. Cole attack, the WTC attack, and the bombing of American servicemen in Saudi Arabia. Destroying him will destroy what is currently the biggest threat to America.
Now here’s your long-term plan for fighting terrorism. Instead of waiting for terrorists to strike an then taking revenge, we’re going to eliminate them first. Send our intelligence forces to every corner of the globe. Tell the CIA to stop training terrorists and start fighting them. Stop letting partisan politics in Washington interfere with our military policy. Above all else, we must end our moronic isolationist policies and start building alliances with other countries. We live in a global community now, whether we want to or not, and can’t just ignore what is going on in other parts of the world when it suits us to do so. Earlier this weekend, Pakistan has started pressuring the Taliban to hand over bin Laden while Iran has sent its first official communication to the US in more than two decades. The question now is whether we will choose to work together with our friends to fight the war or whether we will destroy these newfound alliances through irrational behavior.
You still haven’t provided any reasonable explanation for why ordinary Afghan citizens are responsilbe for these acts, instead choosing to go the well-worn route of comparing them to Nazis. The notorious “orders are orders” excuse was given by high-ranking Nazi officials at their trials, people who were in command of the operations. Their situation was completly different from that of ordinary Germans, who if they chose to disobey any order (even a minor one), faced a fate worse than death on the East Front.
One final note on the topic of genocide. Genocide can be the attempted extermination of a race, ethnic group, or nationality, or it can merely be the subjugation of such a group. Saddam Husein never intended to completly wipe out the Iraqi Kurds, he just wanted to beat them down until they no longer offered any opposition to his oppressive government. Nevertheless, what Saddam was doing to the Kurds was still genocide.
The citizens of any country are responsible for the acts of their leaders. There is no way around this, it is a fact of life. The Taleban have loudly declared their Holy War upon the United States and the population has not risen up en mass to defy this edict. This constitutes tacit support for the stated aim of destroying our country. Our response to this complicity should be unequivocal. We must not permit any nation on earth to sequester or maintain such active enmity without retaliation.
I agree with most of your observations in the preceeding post. I just do not flinch at a quick demonstration of the price any nation participating in terrorism must pay.
Nothing is impossible Zenster. A week ago many people thought that an attack like this could never happen yet it has. The world has changed and in some ways I see some good coming out of this. The people of this world are coming together in ways I never thought would happen. No matter what the religion, race, or creed, there has been nearly universal condemnation for what has happened. People have recognized that we have a common enemy and that we are more alike than we thought. Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sikhs and most, if not all religious and ethnic groups are working together to help the victims of this tragedy. Could any of have imagined this?
It is unfortunate that Afghani nationals are not allowed to speak publically about this because I believe that we would find that they feel as we do and condemn the actions of these terrorists. Sadly, they do not enjoy the rights we do, to speak out against the Taliban equals death. I seriously question that they were compicit in this action.
I support you in that retaliation for this atrocity is in order. We must be ruthless in hunting down the criminals that carried out this cowardly action. Conventional military tactics are not going to be the answer.
Punishing the masses for the actions of a few IS terrorism. We all saw that on Tuesday.
You said it, NEEDLESS deaths. Do we really want to have any more?
I think we should all be careful when it comes to pointing fingers at anyone. The evidence is just starting to come in and we may find that we have accused the wrong people. The news so far indicates that the hijackers were Saudis, not Afghanis.
By knowingly giving safe haven to Osama bin Laden the Taleban government allied themselves with his cause and crimes. The entire psuedo-government and bin Laden’s organization need to be violently dismantled. There needs to be an extremely high price paid for such complicity. It is the only way to demonstrate our intolerance for such collusion. The ensuing deaths of Afghani people are needless only because the Taleban’s cowardly ways will force our hand. I see no alternative to removing the Taleban completely. They will breed up another bin Laden at the soonest opportunity. It is incumbent upon us to prevent that.
Well, the more I watch the news the more I think it is inevitable that we will smash the Taliban movement. Shame. All they have to do is stop supporting a terrorist. Really, doesn’t seem all that difficult.
Local news here stated that they had some information that one of the terrorists who hijacked a Boston plane had a job at the airport.
You know what this means to me? We-- are-- fucked. How many sleepers are lying around in America right now?
From what I’ve come to understand in my readings lately, these terrorist groups don’t answer to anyone. They learn their lessons in the crazy “terrorist camps” and then go out into the world. When they see an opportunity for some happy-happy terrorism they phone home to get the funds. Then thye do it.
This is the opposite of 1984, in a way, where your neighbor could be a terrorist lying in wait, just trying to plan the right move.
And what do we do about this? We are facing an enemy who will accept nothing less than the destruction of America. What the fuck do you think we should do?
GAH. There is nothing we can do. They are already here. They already hate us. We can’t pull out now even if we wanted to. Hopefully America’s resolve in this matter will demonstrate that terrorism alone isn’t going to knock us out of the game. I doubt it; ever argue with a creationist? Of course; most of us here have happily enjoyed such debate, even thought they rarely listen to a damn thing we say.
But creationists don’t bomb buildings, restaraunts, and fly their fucking planes into civilian structures. They just sulk away and go back to their bible reading.
Our enemies do bomb buildings.
Zenster, I am frightened like I have never been frightened before. I frankly do not think there is a solution to this at all that will eliminate terrorism without receiving more attacks. And I know inaction will not rid us of terrorist attacks.
We are between a rock and a hard place. Do we bomb our way through it? Will that accomplish anything?
Some say no, but Germany is at peace now and unified. Some say no, but Kuwait still exists. Some say no, but Japan is now our friend and business partner. Some say no, because they think this is different.
I don’t think it is different. Previously, we have lacked the strength of our conviction. We won’t now. When we act, we will act swift. And when we do, there will be retaliatory terrorist attempts. Some of those attempts will undoubtedly be successful. And we will be stirred to go on. And on.
America hasn’t seen a war on its own soil for some time. Perhaps many Americans would rather cower in the face of fanatics than stand up for their ideals in the face of sheer terror. Perhaps many Americans would rather pretend we can pacify those who hate us to the core already. Perhaps not, perhaps they think we can wage a war against these people through espionage and education. That would be nice, but for that education to get there they have to want us there in the first place. AND THEY DON’T.
We are fucked. But not as fucked as they.
I have nothing more to add.
And neither do I. We have an avowed enemy who has just carried out their stated intention of slaughtering American citizens by the thousands. There must be a horrendous price tag for such conduct. Anything less merely invites another round of attack. No matter what we do, we will probably suffer further attacks. We must make it patently clear that such attacks have dire consequences and back up the threat with credible evidence of its truth.
Please know that I am worried as I have never been before. We are at a turning point in history where we will surrender our progress as a free society or assert ourselves in a fashion so viscious as to be nearly alien to our culture. None of this will be fun. Capturing and prosecuting bin Laden is merely a prelude to the gigantic task in front of us. All of our responses must be unequivocal and decisive, this much I know. The time for polite diplomacy and tolerance is over with. This is war.
Really, it all makes me sick. Innocent people dying and all tends to turn my stomach. Thanks Tamerlane for linking to my post in the other thread. There are two things I want to add to the debate here.
The first is that while we are all angry and we are all hurting, we need to maintain our value systems. As so many have pointed out, we cannot stoop to their level. The emotions that Americans are feeling is the type of emotions present in the environments that promote fanaticism. Our stable system of government and free dissemination of ideas will prevent that fanaticism, hopefully letting cooler heads prevail. We need to take a step back from our anger and remember the principles that this country was built on. Let those decide our next actions. Question yourself – do you want revenge or do you want justice?
The next thing is that straight military victory will accomplish nothing. We are accustomed to fighting an enemy who is motivated to avoid death. It is the oldest paradigm in warfare – the general trend of war is to minimize losses. Even kamikaze and human wave attacks could be thought of the sacrifice of few to protect many. We lose that paradigm in the current war. With death comes martyrdom, making this particular brand of terrorism frighteningly like (to use an oft-tossed around simile) Hydra. One head is cut off, many heads sprout to take its place. Sure, we want justice, but we also must take steps to prevent anti-American fundamentalism (actually I would like to see a battle against fundamentalism of all stripes, but that is another topic). We need something to replace it, and the only thing we know how to do is our value system. So promote democracy and freedom by aggressive rebuilding and education. This is what we did after World War II. I remind you that World War I ended with the destruction of Germany, followed by 15 years of an ineffectual republic. World War II was fought because the same type of nationalism and fanaticism swept through Germany in 1933. We learned after World War II – we rebuilt Europe and Japan. It worked, and now they are amongst our staunchest allies. We can do the same with the Islamic world if we play our cards right.
Osama bin Laden is guilty of organizing and carrying out terrorist actions against the people of many countries and is sheltered and given refuge in Afghanistan by the Taliban. Whether he was responsible for Tuesday’s attack is still undetermined but I think likely.
The Taliban has threatened unspecified action against Pakistan should they interfere or ally themselves with the international community.
So…
Pakistan is standing firm and will be making a formal request tomorrow that they hand bin Laden over to international authorities. I would expect that any backlash from the Taliban will be responded to by both Pakistan and international forces.
With their borders closed and rebels in the north ready to wage wholescale war against them with the assistance of the U.S. and international forces they are holding a losing hand in a very high stakes game of poker. One does not bluff with a pair when your opponent is holding a royal flush. A wise man would fold and concede defeat to whatever terms your opponents dictate. I hope that they are indeed wise men and save themselves and their citizens untold carnage.
It would be better for all of us that bin Laden is handed over to the authorities and then tried by the people who he claims to share his faith with. After they condemn him for defying the will of Allah and twisting the words of the holy Al Qu’ran to suit his own murderous intentions they will execute him, let it be public so that every wannabe bin Laden realizes that there is only one reward for terrorists.
No paradise, no honour… just death.
From here we will have to make similar requests of other countries that are home to known terrorist factions.
Some of us are cursed with self-awareness…and some of us clearly are not!