# Afghanistan Today **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 13, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624 "2021-08-13T18:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/283 "2021-08-20T01:54:25Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > but I’m calling you out on it, you’re advocating a permanent, unconditional presence in Afghanistan. Tell me why and tell me how you’d make it work. Nobody said “permanent unconditional presence”. That’s a strawman you created for the sake of argument. We HAD a military base 100 miles from the Pakistan border and the taliban was severely limited in Afghanistan because of it. That’s what it took to support the effort. 50,000 plus Afghani died defending their country with air support we supplied from that base. That’s what it took, local boots on the ground. All that has been destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/284 "2021-08-20T02:47:53Z")
If the status quo was desirable and the only foreign military prescence required was air support, Canada and the UK and whoever else could have provided that without US support. It’s not like no one knew the US was pulling out. This entire premise is predicated on the idea that no foreign government was willing to make the commitment the US was, so its hard to now take their anger at us seriously for having pulled out. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/285 "2021-08-20T03:29:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This failure will reverberate for decades. A failure that is owned by more than one president. Saying anything to the contrary is not arguing or debating in good faith. If Afghanistan was so ‘winnable’ it would have been won in the first year or two. Blaming Biden is like blaming Parkland Hospital trauma surgeons for not figuring out a way to save President Kennedy’s obliterated brain. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/286 "2021-08-20T03:33:18Z")
Again, Sam, Cyprus ain’t Afghanistan. Canadian “peacekeepers” aren’t gonna last long in Afghanistan. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Canadians lost their lives fighting the Taliban who Biden has put back in charge. Another disingenuous argument. Seriously, everyone on this board knows that this is a dishonest smear considering how it was Donald Trump who negotiated with the Taliban exclusively. This is a lie. I would appreciate it if you would stop lying. Mods might sanction me for this, but they should sanction you first because everyone reading this knows it’s a lie ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/287 "2021-08-20T03:49:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I’ll ask you the same question I asked Magiver: **are you in favor of a permanent, open-ended commitment to Afghanistan?** If so, to what level would you like to see Canada involved? > > Yes, and yes. Canada is well known for its peacekeeping. We had peacekeepers in Cyprus for 56 years. At one point we had about 20,000 soldiers there. > > I’ve never supported ‘nation building’ in Afghanistan. That’s a fool’s errand. But a UN or NATO peacekeeping force could have been managed. I supported Canada fighting alongside the U.S. in Afghanistan, and Canadian soldiers served honorably and saved American soldiers multiple times. 158 Canadians lost their lives fighting the Taliban who Biden has put back in charge. > > As for Trump… Why am I called on to defend him? I’m not a Trump supporter. I think his drawdown was reckless, and to some extent made leaving an inevitability, since there would have been no political will to send soldiers back in, and it would have been dangerous since 2,500 was probably not enough to repulse the Taliban and they might have started a major offensive if they thought America was reneging and putting troops back in. So that’s on Trump. However, Biden has already said he would have done the same thing even if Trump hadn’t had that agrement with the Taliban, so I guess he owns it. > > What’s on Biden is the horribly botched pullout, his refusal to admit mistakes, his failure to notify allies or listen to the warnings of his generals, and his despicable blaming of the people he abandoned. Repeating: > [@](#): > > It is quite possible you aren’t considering the bigger picture in your haste to attack Biden, but I’m calling you out on it, you’re advocating a permanent, unconditional presence in Afghanistan. Tell me why and tell me how you’d make it work. If you don’t you’re a charlatan. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/288 "2021-08-20T03:53:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > It reads to me that “several MPs” angrily criticized Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab, and also criticized Biden. This doesn’t read like they “issued a censure.” Could you provide some evidence to this factual claim that the Westminster Parliament issued some formal censure of Joe Biden? > > Seriously? you’re parsing words for the sake of argument? Parliament actually took the time to publicly dress down Biden. His treatment of Prime Minister Johnson was disgraceful. > > Biden has severely weakened any credibility this country had as a NATO partner. > > And your comment about Presidents taking vacation time was just pointless. Of course Presidents take vacations. Camp David exists as a retreat from the daily work load and all Presidents routinely pack up and go back to their favorite rest area. They’re reported in the news as vacations. Being on vacation doesn’t mean a divorce from all job related work. > > Clearly in this case Biden was on vacation while the taliban tore through Afghanistan and that is how it was reported in the news despite your opinion of terminology. I mean you weren’t even the one who made the false claim about a “parliamentary censure”, which again, appeared to just be a few random MPs spouting off in an open session, so I’m not sure why you’d stick your neck out on that piece of nonsense. If you’d like to do what @Sam_Stone would not do since he obviously had been caught making things up, maybe you can offer proof the Westminster Parliament “censured Joe Biden.” And no, the Presidency does not stop because the President is in Camp David. In fact Camp David is generally a much better place to work from than most of the other private sites recent Presidents have spent time at. The security apparatus there is better formed, less expensive for taxpayers, they literally have setup for staffers to work there, they have the equivalent of a SCIF there etc. The President can literally run WWII from Camp David (and has), the idea Biden isn’t able to address stuff in Afghanistan from Camp David is not accurate and false. The continual practice of partisans “making issue” of the President not being in the White House has always been stupid, and I’ve called it out for every President. It’s not a good faith commentary, OR it means you’re ignorant of how the Presidency operates. > [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > but I’m calling you out on it, you’re advocating a permanent, unconditional presence in Afghanistan. Tell me why and tell me how you’d make it work. > > Nobody said “permanent unconditional presence”. That’s a strawman you created for the sake of argument. We HAD a military base 100 miles from the Pakistan border and the taliban was severely limited in Afghanistan because of it. That’s what it took to support the effort. 50,000 plus Afghani died defending their country with air support we supplied from that base. That’s what it took, local boots on the ground. All that has been destroyed. How long did you want to remain in Afghanistan and to what number of troops? It’s easy to blather on nonsense, let’s hear your specifics for the great Magiver Afghan plan. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/289 "2021-08-20T04:13:23Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > How long did you want to remain in Afghanistan and to what number of troops? It’s easy to blather on nonsense, let’s hear your specifics for the great Magiver Afghan plan. last years numbers. as long as it’s in our interest. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/290 "2021-08-20T04:45:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > as long as it’s in our interest. It was never in our interest to prop up the corrupt, incompetent, kleptocratic government of Afghanistan, and certainly not at the financial and human cost that doing it for 20 years took from us. The Karzai-Ghani regime wasn’t much better than Pinochet’s Chile or Iran under the Shah, and continuing to keep it on life support was immoral. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/291 "2021-08-20T11:27:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Karzai-Ghani regime wasn’t much better than Pinochet’s Chile or Iran under the Shah, and continuing to keep it on life support was immoral. WHat was immoral was not having an actual succession plan. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/292 "2021-08-20T13:56:31Z")
**Warning** for **asahi**. You were just recently reminded to attack the post and not the poster. You knew what you were posting was not allowed and posted it anyway. Honestly all you had to do was post this is not correct, check your facts or something like that. Please be careful going forward. Your warnings and notes are adding up lately. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/293 "2021-08-20T14:31:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > How long did you want to remain in Afghanistan and to what number of troops? It’s easy to blather on nonsense, let’s hear your specifics for the great Magiver Afghan plan. > > last years numbers. as long as it’s in our interest. Last year’s numbers were 2500, which if the Taliban were actively resisting, could not hold the country. The last time we had extensive combat with the Taliban we had to have over 40,000 troops in the country. When we indicated our 2500 were going to stay forever so the Taliban ramped attacks back up, would you be in favor of increasing U.S. troop deployments back up to the 40,000+ level that had been required to hold back the Taliban the last time they were actively going after us? If not, how would you viably defend the country with 2500? If so, how long would you be willing to continue a deployment of 40,000+ troops? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/294 "2021-08-20T17:27:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It was never in our interest to prop up the corrupt, incompetent, kleptocratic government of Afghanistan, and certainly not at the financial and human cost that doing it for 20 years took from us. that’s your opinion. You could have made the same statement about ISIS in Syria. or any of the other interventions made over the years in places like Yemen and Africa. But once we engaged the population of Afghanistan we had a moral obligation to the people who worked with us. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/295 "2021-08-20T17:30:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > But once we engaged the population of Afghanistan we had a moral obligation to the people who worked with us. I thought that was what the money was for… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/296 "2021-08-20T17:32:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Last year’s numbers were 2500, which if the Taliban were actively resisting, could not hold the country. The last time we had extensive combat with the Taliban we had to have over 40,000 troops in the country. When we indicated our 2500 were going to stay forever so the Taliban ramped attacks back up, would you be in favor of increasing U.S. troop deployments back up to the 40,000+ level that had been required to hold back the Taliban the last time they were actively going after us? If not, how would you viably defend the country with 2500? If so, how long would you be willing to continue a deployment of 40,000+ troops? You have an amazing talent for making stuff up as if it were true and then making an argument out of it. There’s a simple test for the success of the recent level of troops. What would happen if they were removed?. We can see the answer. The Taliban immediately swept across the entire country in a very short period of time. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/297 "2021-08-20T17:33:34Z")
This is very bad. Is Hillary giving it? Sebastian Smith ~~[removed tweet with links]~~ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/298 "2021-08-20T17:52:51Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > Is Hillary giving it? Is Hillary giving what? The ever lovin’ fuck are you even talking about?.. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/299 "2021-08-20T17:58:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > Last year’s numbers were 2500, which if the Taliban were actively resisting, could not hold the country. The last time we had extensive combat with the Taliban we had to have over 40,000 troops in the country. When we indicated our 2500 were going to stay forever so the Taliban ramped attacks back up, would you be in favor of increasing U.S. troop deployments back up to the 40,000+ level that had been required to hold back the Taliban the last time they were actively going after us? If not, how would you viably defend the country with 2500? If so, how long would you be willing to continue a deployment of 40,000+ troops? > > You have an amazing talent for making stuff up as if it were true and then making an argument out of it. > > There’s a simple test for the success of the recent level of troops. What would happen if they were removed?. We can see the answer. The Taliban immediately swept across the entire country in a very short period of time. I mean these are simply the sort of questions that have to be answered when you are advocating a military deployment to a hostile country. What we actually know is that with 2500 troops, the Taliban had no problem, going back a year to when the Doha Agreement was signed, and even as far back as 2017, signing deals with local commanders to surrender in exchange for cash and other promises. In fact long before even the Doha agreement, the Taliban was significantly active throughout rural Afghanistan (something like 70% of Afghanistan’s population live in rural areas.) There is simply no evidence that 2500 soldiers would be enough to keep Afghanistan safe if the Taliban actively was fighting against them. We know for an absolute fact, that the Taliban has not been actively trying to attack U.S. troops in any significant number for the last 2-3 years, and that’s precisely because they expected that we were leaving, and they saw it as a fruitless effort and waste of resources. The fact that you’re unwilling to consider any broader implications of your desire to keep 2500 troops in country “forever”, including if conditions on the ground change, means your proposal is not serious, and can frankly be discarded. Until you show a willingness to actually engage on the issues from a place of knowledge, I won’t engage with you further in this thread–it will simply be noted it is a fact you have said many things incorrectly and are promoting a continuation of a strategy that has clearly been a failure for 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/300 "2021-08-20T18:00:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You have an amazing talent for making stuff up as if it were true and then making an argument out of it. This is an attack on the poster, not the post. Don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/301 "2021-08-20T18:00:55Z")
**modnote** : Please stop posting random garbage with loads of links and no explanation. You’re treading very close to needing action in the modloop this week. Please work on posting better. If you post a link, explain why and what it is a little. Don’t post random garbage. Try not to post conspiracy theories. Try not to post patent medicine scammers. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/302 "2021-08-20T18:50:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Another disingenuous argument. Seriously, everyone on this board knows that this is a dishonest smear considering how it was Donald Trump who negotiated with the Taliban exclusively. This is a lie. I would appreciate it if you would stop lying. Mods might sanction me for this, but they should sanction you first because everyone reading this knows it’s a lie Trump is not President. Biden had no problem undoing all sorts of Trump policies and agreements he didn’t like. He has also said he would have done the same thing had Trump not signed any agreements. And I’ll remind you that he already broke Trump’s agreement with the Talivan. He let the original deadline blow by without negotiation. Would Trump have done the same thing if he were in office? Maybe. I really don’t know. He certainly would have pulled out, but whether he would have done so in the same way is an open question. He wanted to pull completely out of Iraq and Syria too, but ultimately listened to his advisors who said it would be too dangerous. But I can imagine him screwing it up just as badly as Biden did. But Trump is not in office, and Biden had 8 months to figure out a better way out of Afghanistan. He himself claimed on July 8 that he believed the Taliban were unlikely to take the country. He never said his hands were tied by Trump forcing him to do something he didn’t want - he said that this was his devision, that it went according to plan, no mistakes were made, and he’d do it again. Biden owns this. And even if the point is debatable, calling me a ‘liar’ for blaming him is beyond the pale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624.md?page=16)