# Afghanistan Today **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 13, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624 "2021-08-13T18:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/363 "2021-08-22T21:19:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Just like withdrawing from Vietnam? It’s damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/364 "2021-08-22T21:26:26Z")
We’re a long way from 1975. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/365 "2021-08-22T21:49:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > We’re a long way from 1975 …what would you have said in 1975? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/366 "2021-08-22T21:51:12Z")
We’re a long way from 1848. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/367 "2021-08-22T22:05:32Z")
Something like that, maybe, lol ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/368 "2021-08-22T22:29:52Z")
I think the US has past its peak in terms of global power and influence, which was not the case in 1975. In short, the US is crumbling from within, which makes it weaker intrinsically, but as (I think) it has been said already, the US image worldwide as a reliable partner is taking a drubbing. The US is still quite formidable if/when it can lead broad coalitions, but trust in the US among allies is probably at a post-1945 low right now. You can’t lead coalitions when countries question your internal stability and your international reliability. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/369 "2021-08-22T22:41:26Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think the US has past its peak in terms of global power and influence, which was not the case in 1975. What did we have going for us in 1975 that we don’t have now? What “international reliability” did we have when that Last Chopper Out Of Saigon visual hit? What do you figure was stronger “from within” when our Commander-In-Chief resigned in disgrace and got a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card while various draft dodgers were still behind bars? How do you figure we were _less_ of a punchline then? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/370 "2021-08-22T23:02:05Z")
Like I said, I think a lot of this talk of democratic backsliding is exaggerated. By every measure it is actually easier to vote, and more likely that your vote is counted fairly, right now than was the case in 1975 when Saigon fell, to link those two points in history. I think most of the critiques you can levy at the U.S. democratic system (and I have levied them elsewhere), boil down to it being democracy for the 18th century, in many ways there’s admirable stuff in our constitutional system that made the country work for many years. But I’ve also advocated sweeping changes since at least 2010 or so precisely because this antiquated system just doesn’t work that well in modern times. However it’s not actually a case of backsliding, I think it’s more a case of maybe people (particularly on the left, which dominates dialogue here) viewing it as more of a problem because they are more aware of it. But the problem has actually always been there. One reason for example that the Senate is a fuckshow is a lot of states in the second half of the 19th century were created solely to “stack” the Senate with political factions of the time, that’s had unanticipated and undesirable consequences 120 years later. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/371 "2021-08-22T23:12:51Z")
No doubt, all of those things took a hit after 1975, but we were still considered to be the better option between two ideological futures and a bulwark against authoritarian socialism. There is no more global communist threat. There’s China, and that of course provides an opportunity for us to lead a united front, but we’ve shown repeatedly that we’re not exactly anyone’s reliable ally lately. We slapped tariffs and allies and foes alike. We backed out of the Paris accord. Backed out the the TPP. Have whimsical foreign policy with regard to global threats such as Russia and North Korea. But the deeper problems are domestic. We’re flirting with illiberal democracy. One of the two major parties still pushes the idea that the election was stolen and is using that conspiracy theory as a pretext to rig elections. We just had an insurrection and one half of the country seems just fine with it, with some within that group seemingly begging for more. We have governors who are actively interfering with public health and school officials over mask and vaccine policies, which should really be noncontroversial. We are fast approaching major ecological tipping points and I’d be willing to wager that our ‘plan’ for dealing with this crisis is probably about as robust as our plan for dealing with a pandemic or withdrawing troops from Afghanistan. If that’s not enough, we have a debt that is growing rapidly and yet the chances that we can actually get the people who possess much of the wealth and control much of the economic activity in this country to actually pay more in taxes are pretty slim. Sure, the country was bitterly divided in 1975 but there was still respect for institutions and the political system. Not in 2021. Nothing is certain. There is still time for a reversal, and to effectively change to get us back on the right track, but I’ve made the prediction more than once that liberal democracy will be replaced by illiberal democracy by the end of the decade. And if that prediction turns out to be true, then it only makes my other prediction more certain, which is that the U.S. will suffer a catastrophic ecological collapse between 2030 and 2040, to the extent that it would likely fracture the country permanently. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/372 "2021-08-22T23:17:43Z")
I both agree and disagree at the same time, which speaks to the point that I am making. Yes, you’re absolutely correct. Among many - I’d say the majority of the population - there is increased enthusiasm for voting and commitments to democracy. In certain places, this enthusiasm for democracy is as high as it has ever been at any time in history. But there is a political minority that understands this and they are waging a counter-revolution against this surge in democratic fervor. I think your assumption is that this counter-revolution can’t succeed. My point is, it absolutely can succeed. And it will use procedural warfare and the court system - now tilted heavily in favor of the illiberal forces - to achieve a permanent political advantage. I would actually argue that we are already in a low-level civil war. Right now the weaponry is mostly acidic rhetoric and abuse of the legislative and court systems, but in time, this will eventually become a hot conflict. I am almost certain of it. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/373 "2021-08-23T05:50:05Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think the US has past its peak in terms of global power and influence, which was not the case in 1975. In short, the US is crumbling from within, which makes it weaker intrinsically, but as (I think) it has been said already, the US image worldwide as a reliable partner is taking a drubbing. The US is still quite formidable if/when it can lead broad coalitions, but trust in the US among allies is probably at a post-1945 low right now. You can’t lead coalitions when countries question your internal stability and your international reliability. This is precisely what I remember people saying in 1975. The downfall of the US is forever being predicted. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/374 "2021-08-23T10:43:52Z")
Look at how we’ve responded to the pandemic - not just the Republican party’s president, governors, and talking heads, but millions of ordinary citizens. It’s a sign of things to come. Our society is broken, and it’s probably unrecoverable. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/375 "2021-08-23T11:07:55Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > One can certainly fault misinformation and poor communication. What factors in each administration led to such rosy projections, naive assumptions, suboptimal intelligence and failures to make lasting improvements? What, in retrospect, could be done better next time? Groupthink has been blamed for this sort of failure in the past, and probably plays a role here. > **[Groupthink](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)** > > Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Cohesiveness, or the desire for cohesiveness, in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs. This causes the group to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation. > Groupthink is a construct of social psychology but has an extensive reac... ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/376 "2021-08-23T13:31:05Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Look at how we’ve responded to the pandemic - not just the Republican party’s president, governors, and talking heads, but millions of ordinary citizens. It’s a sign of things to come. Our society is broken, and it’s probably unrecoverable. The US hasn’t exactly done a stellar job of it. But let’s look at the numbers today. Reported this morning, only 29% (82M) of the eligible public remains unvaccinated. That’s means that the overwhelming majority has been vaccinated since it became generally available in May/June of this year. Remember that back in April it was still only available to people over 65 and those who are immuno-compromised or have extenuating health issues that prioritized them in the queue. The rate of vaccination continues to climb as Pfizer is expected to be FDA approved today or tomorrow. Like you, I’d like to have seen this done sooner and faster. I’d like to have heard less from the right lunatic fringe and anti-vaxxers spreading lies. But on the whole, things continue to head in the right direction and the people who made poor choices are largely the ones paying the price. Of course health professionals are having to share that burden and that isn’t fair to them or the rest of those who took this seriously. But on the whole, we’re in a much better place than we were at the start of 2021. The picture is not as bleak as you paint it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/377 "2021-08-23T15:49:44Z")
> [@](#): > > How many more generations of America’s daughters and sons would you have me send to fight Afghanistan’s civil war when Afghan troops will not? Wow, in before anyone has charged Biden with plagiarizing LBJ? > We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10,000 miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves, Fortunately Afghanistan doesn’t have any ‘gulfs’. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/378 "2021-08-23T16:02:42Z")
Public statements by Presidents are public domain, no plagiarism involved 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/379 "2021-08-23T23:32:01Z")
[Singapore Prime Minister **Lee Hsien Loong**](https://www.mediaite.com/news/singapore-pm-says-us-image-in-question-during-press-conference-with-kamala-harris/) said during a Sunday press conference with Vice President **Kamala Harris** that he believed after America’s “awry” withdrawal of troops led to the fall of Afghanistan, global perceptions of our image would be determined in the days ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/380 "2021-08-23T23:46:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Singapore Prime Minister **Lee Hsien Loong**](https://www.mediaite.com/news/singapore-pm-says-us-image-in-question-during-press-conference-with-kamala-harris/) said during a Sunday press conference with Vice President **Kamala Harris** that he believed after America’s “awry” withdrawal of troops led to the fall of Afghanistan […] Note: That paragraph is a direct quote from your linked article, but nowhere in the article does it offer any evidence that Loong actually said that the “awry” withdrawal of troops “led to the fall of Afghanistan”. [Here is the transcript of Loong’s and Harris’s press conference](https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/vp-kamala-harris-pm-lee-singapore-press-conference-transcript), and here’s what Loong actually said: > [@](#): > > The Biden administration inherited an extremely difficult situation. The U.S. had invested considerable blood and treasure in Afghanistan, but it was an intractable task given the complex history, geography and tribal rivalries of the place. Successive US presidents have declared their resolve to withdraw from Afghanistan. So I told the Vice President that we understand President Biden’s reasons for his decision. The US intervention has stopped terrorist groups from using Afghanistan as a safe base for 20 years. For this, Singapore is grateful. We hope Afghanistan does not become an epicenter for terrorism again. And post-Afghanistan in the longer term, what matters is how the US repositions itself in the Asia Pacific engages the broader region and continues the fight against terrorism, because that will determine the perceptions of the countries, of the US global priorities, and of its strategic intentions. […] > > But what will influence perceptions of US resolve and commitment to the region will be what the US does going forward, how it repositions itself in the region, how it engages its broad range of friends and partners and allies in the region, and how it continues the fight against terrorism. Countries make calculations and take positions, and they have to make recalculations and adjust their positions from time to time. Sometimes, it can be done smoothly. Sometimes, there are hiccups. Sometimes, things go awry and take time to put right. But countries remain with long-term interests, with long-term partners, and it’s a mark of a country which can succeed that it takes these interests and partners seriously and in a dispassionate way, and maintains them over the long-term. And the US has been in the region since the war, which is more than 70 years ago. There have been ups and downs. There have been difficult moments. There have also been, over decades, dramatic transformations in Asia, wrought by the benign and constructive influence of the United States as a regional guarantor of security and support of prosperity. So yeah, quite different from the spin put on Loong’s remarks by your cited Mediaite article and your post. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/381 "2021-08-24T00:08:57Z")
I think you’re missing the point. The pandemic was a major national crisis. Unlike 9/11, unlike WWII, unlike the Depression, when the country generally unified to confront a crisis, the response to the pandemic in 2020 didn’t bring us together; it drove us apart. There are increasingly two Americas, two visions of what the country is and what it should be. The world sometimes looks at America as a bully, and maybe we are. But one thing that gets lost on everyone - even Americans: Americans save their very best fights for each other. And they are brutal. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/382 "2021-08-24T00:18:29Z")
Although America has had many contentious periods, it has often managed to unite in crisis. This did not happen on a national level during Covid in the US, and over the last twenty years there has been increasing political polarization. The trend was once for politicians of different parties to be privately friendly and sociable - allowing for some understanding; even this is now looked upon harshly by some partisans. Many receive news from their preferred sources and have talking points instead of reasonable debate. Given the importance of compromise in daily life, this is tragic. Canada did generally come together during Covid. America has been divided before and there is no reason to believe this polarization permanent or inevitable. It won’t happen while Trump has influence. However, he is not young nor easily replicated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624.md?page=20)