# Afghanistan Today **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 13, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624 "2021-08-13T18:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/383 "2021-08-24T00:29:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So yeah, quite different from the spin put on Loong’s remarks by your cited Mediaite article and your post. What? he acknowledged the success of the last 20 years: The US intervention has stopped terrorist groups from using Afghanistan as a safe base for 20 years. For this, Singapore is grateful. We hope Afghanistan does not become an epicenter for terrorism again. Are you suggesting Afghanistan didn’t fall to a terrorist group? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/384 "2021-08-24T00:37:17Z")
I’m saying that contrary to the misleading assertion you quoted from your linked article, Loong did not claim that “America’s ‘awry’ withdrawal of troops led to the fall of Afghanistan”. Loong’s actual quoted remarks make it clear that he recognizes that the fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban was inevitable, and it was not specifically the “awry” nature of the final military drawdown that “led to” it. The quoted statement in your article is spin language attempting to propagate the myth that if Biden had done a better exit then Afghanistan would somehow magically not have been taken over by the Taliban, and therefore the takeover must be Biden’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/385 "2021-08-24T00:55:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Loong’s actual quoted remarks make it clear that he recognizes that the fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban was inevitable, Where does it say that? He said the US was successful the last 20 years and hopes it doesn’t become an epicenter for terrorism again. He just left out the words “since it just fell to terrorists”. He’s not Trump who lacks a mouth filter. That was a carefully worded speech. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/386 "2021-08-24T00:56:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Where does it say that? Right there in my quoted excerpt: > [@](#): > > it was an intractable task given the complex history, geography and tribal rivalries of the place. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/387 "2021-08-24T01:06:10Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > America has been divided before and there is no reason to believe this polarization permanent or inevitable. It’s not absolutely inevitable, but all the indications are that the polarity is highly likely to inflict fatal blows to liberal democracy. Even if Trump fades away, he has been instructive in terms of laying out a path to power in the Republican party. Gerrymandering is only going to ensure that the Republican party doubles and triples down on its extremism. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/388 "2021-08-24T01:08:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Where does it say that? He said the US was successful the last 20 years and hopes it doesn’t become an epicenter for terrorism again. He just left out the words “since it just fell to terrorists”. “Muslims who don’t like America” is not a synonym for “terrorists”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/389 "2021-08-24T01:11:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > it was an intractable task given the complex history, geography and tribal rivalries of the place. And the US was successful for 20 years until a few weeks ago. the speech was not a pat on the back. It was a polite acknowledgement of previous US leadership success and a hope it doesn’t become a haven for terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/390 "2021-08-24T01:13:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Muslims who don’t like America” is not a synonym for “terrorists”. Yes but terrorists are a synonym for terrorists and that’s what the taliban represented in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/391 "2021-08-24T01:14:57Z")
The Taliban represents the government of the state of Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/392 "2021-08-24T01:16:45Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > but trust in the US among allies is probably at a post-1945 low right now. I think it has gone up some since Trump is no longer President. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/393 "2021-08-24T01:20:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And the US was successful for 20 years until a few weeks ago. Only in the sense that, say, keeping a vegetative-state patient on a life-support system is “successfully” treating their condition. That is to say, not at all. If the patient dies as soon as you take them off life support, and there was no prospect at any point in the foreseeable future of being able to get them off life support without their immediately dying, then no, your treatment was not being “successful” right up to the moment you pulled the plug. Your “treatment” wasn’t accomplishing anything constructive at all, in fact. Conservatives are going to work very hard from now on trying to pretend that our “treatment” of Afghanistan was “succeeding” just fine until Biden pulled the plug and “killed” it. But in fact, the collapse of the US/NATO puppet government was always a foregone conclusion, and Loong is evidently well aware of that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/394 "2021-08-24T01:31:20Z")
But so what? How do allies look at our pandemic insanity and not begin to have serious doubts? How do allies look at the events of January 6th and the endless conspiracy theories and not have serious doubts? How do they look at the erratic foreign policy of the last 4-5 years and not have serious reservations? The US was solely responsible for the global financial crisis of 2007-9 and we’ve not really moved the needle much in terms of reigning in corporate power and inequality, so how do allies look at this and not have doubts? How do Americans look at these same circumstances and not have doubts? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/395 "2021-08-24T01:36:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Taliban represents the government of the state of Afghanistan. Are you serious? The taliban represents a terrorist group that conquered Afghanistan. they weren’t elected or in any way approved of by the the people of Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/396 "2021-08-24T01:39:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The taliban represents a terrorist group that conquered Afghanistan. they weren’t elected or in any way approved of by the the people of Afghanistan. For a “conquered” people they sure did stand down and sell their weapons to the Taliban eagerly enough. Was the unelected, corrupt puppet state they replaced any more legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/397 "2021-08-24T01:41:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Conservatives are going to work very hard from now on trying to pretend that our “treatment” of Afghanistan was “succeeding” just fine until Biden pulled the plug and “killed” it. But in fact, the collapse of the US/NATO puppet government was always a foregone conclusion, and Loong is evidently well aware of that. It wasn’t a foregone conclusion. 60,000 Afghan people died defending their country. And why you’re injecting politics in this is mind numbing considering both parties supported the effort. You really need to separate Biden from the Democratic party and consider he is responsible for this and not the party. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/398 "2021-08-24T01:43:38Z")
Were the CCP elected by the people of China? Was Kim Jong Un elected by the people of North Korea? Was the House of Saud elected by the people of Saudi Arabia? I mean, FFS, the Saudis murdered an American-based journalist, and what was our response, lol? Might be time to temper some expectations, eh? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/399 "2021-08-24T01:46:45Z")
That’s right, 66,000 Afghans did defending Afghanistan while Trump was negotiating with the Taliban without even consulting the democratically-elected government. There’s agreement that Biden is living in a parallel universe with regard to the logistics of the withdrawal, but it would make your posts more credible if you’d also concede that Trump had a lot to do with where we are now. Not just Trump, but yes, Obama, too, and his predecessor, Bush ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/400 "2021-08-24T01:59:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It wasn’t a foregone conclusion. What would have changed the outcome, in your opinion? Do you imagine that keeping a mere 10,000 US troops in Afghanistan permanently would have forever prevented the Taliban from reasserting control? If so, ISTM you’re massively deluding yourself. The Taliban negotiated the 2021 full-withdrawal deal with the Trump administration, and since then they’ve simply been waiting for the Americans to pack up and go. If the Americans had suddenly said “nah, actually, the last few thousand of us aren’t going to pack up and go after all”, then the Taliban would have got busy again throwing us out. And to stop that, we’d have had to bring thousands more troops back in. Is any of that what we should have done, in your opinion? > [@Magiver](#): > > And why you’re injecting politics in this is mind numbing considering both parties supported the effort. Majorities of both parties (as well as Independents) also currently support the US withdrawing from Afghanistan. The US people as a whole don’t want to continue indefinitely maintaining the risk, the responsibility, and the expense of keeping an intrinsically failed mission on permanent life support. It hasn’t been working, it isn’t going to work, and we are done. But yet, you want to lay all the blame for this outcome solely on the current Democratic President, and then complain that other people are “injecting politics” into the situation. Pfft. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/401 "2021-08-24T02:01:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > For a “conquered” people they sure did stand down and sell their weapons to the Taliban eagerly enough. Was the unelected, corrupt puppet state they replaced any more legitimate? You can say the same thing about the French in WWII when confronted with the Blitzkrieg. Did they welcome the nazi regime as their new government? No. Did the world form an alliance against them? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624/402 "2021-08-24T02:03:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 60,000 Afghan people died defending their country. In the opinion of many Afghanis, their deaths were cynically and pointlessly inflicted by the US occupation in a self-serving power struggle. As I remarked [in a concurrent thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/324), > [@Kimstu](#): > > Given that a lot of people have mentioned the catastrophic situation with women’s rights in Afghanistan, which is likely to continue getting more catastrophic in the near future, it’s interesting to get a perspective from the [Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan](http://www.rawa.org/index.php) (RAWA). > > RAWA is an indigenous feminism and human rights organization founded in Kabul in 1977, which has been fighting for women’s rights, secularism, democracy and social justice ever since. [Here’s their view on the US/NATO occupation and the recent pullout](http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2021/08/21/rawa-responds-to-the-taliban-takeover.html). > > > [@](#): > > > > In the past 20 years, one of our demands was an end to the US/NATO occupation and even better if they take their Islamic fundamentalists and technocrats with them and let our people decide their own fate. This occupation only resulted in bloodshed, destruction and chaos. They turned our country into the most corrupt, insecure, drug-mafia and dangerous place especially for women. > > > > > From the very beginning we could predict such an outcome. On the first days of the US occupation of Afghanistan, RAWA declared on October 11, 2001: > > > > > > “The continuation of US attacks and the increase in the number of innocent civilian victims not only gives an excuse to the Taliban, but also will cause the empowerment of the fundamentalist forces in the region and even in the world.” > > > > > > The main reason we were against this occupation was their backing of terrorism under the nice banner of “war on terror”. From the very first days when the Northern Alliance looters and killers were installed back into power in 2002 to the last so-called peace talks, deals and agreements in Doha and release of 5000 terrorists from prisons in 2020/21, it was very obvious that even the withdrawal won’t have a good end. […] > > > > > > It is a joke to say values like “women’s rights”, “democracy”, “nation-building” etc. were part of the US/NATO aims in Afghanistan! US was in Afghanistan to turn region into instability and terrorism to encircling the rival powers especially China and Russia and undermining their economies via regional wars. But of course the US government did not want such a disastrous, disgraceful and embarrassing exit that left behind such a commotion that they were forced to send troops again in 48 hours to control the airport and safely evacuate its diplomats and staff. > > > > > > We believe the US left Afghanistan out of its own weaknesses not defeated by its creatures (Taliban). There are two significant reasons for this withdrawal. > > > > > > The main reason is the multifold internal crisis in the US. The signs of the US system decline was seen in the weak response to Covid-19 pandemic, attack on Capitol Hill and the great protests of the US public in the past few years. The policy-makers were forced to withdraw troops to focus on internal burning issues. > > > > > > The second reason is that the Afghan war was an exceptionally expensive war whose cost has gone into trillions, all taken from taxpayer money. This put such a heavy dent on the US financially that it had to leave Afghanistan. > > > > > > The war-mongering policies prove that their aim was never to make Afghanistan safer, let alone now when they are leaving. Furthermore, they also knew that the withdrawal would be chaotic yet they still went ahead and did it. Now Afghanistan is in the limelight again due to the Taliban being in power but this has been the situation for the past 20 years and everyday hundreds of our people were killed and our country destroyed, it just was rarely reported in the media. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624.md?page=21)