# Afghanistan: What the hell do we do now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289 "2017-08-21T16:39:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/121 "2017-08-23T17:08:00Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Minor nitpick, but we helped ensure that Russia would be run by right-wing kleptocrats rather than by a renovated Communist Party or by a nationalist. Democracy was never a realistic option. (I think what we did was very bad, to be clear, and that rule by Zyuganov & company would be a lot better than what Russia has today, but I think it’s extremely unlikely that Russia was ever going to turn into Germany or France). > > The situation in Chile was certainly exacerbated and supported enthusiastically by America, but in the last analysis Allende was overthrown by the Chilean right with the connivance of the center. Describing the events of 1973 as ‘made in america’ removes agency from the Chilean people involved on all sides. Thank you for your corrections, **Hector\_St\_Clare**. I should have written “helped install.” Yes, the transition from despotic to democratic governance is very difficult. (But at least Russia needn’t detour into theocracy.) Until a culture of democracy is established — Russia never had it — political upheaval will usually just rebound to some other despotism. _ **But the people must keep trying.** _ Eventually, either by luck or practice, faith in the ideals of democracy may develop. The U.S. should have encouraged any nascent democracy and discouraged the huge wealth inequalities that developed through simple (often KGB-assisted) theft. American businessmen, like a certain D.J. Drumpf, found it convenient and profitable to work as accomplices of the Russian mobs. \* Any complicity by the U.S. government in this is shameful.\* ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/122 "2017-08-23T18:18:56Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > As the list asserted included the Saudi, I have just been looking and it appears there is no US base in the Turkmenistan, only a permission for the refueling stops for the purpose of the transit to Afghanistan. > > In any case, although the action movie type analysis thikns a marker on the map = all freedom, relative to the reflecting on the realities of the Afghan case, all basing agreemnts or transit agreements give the approvals to the host country for the parameters of the usage - and the host countries can and do say no as the Turkey did to the Americans for all uses of the existing bases in 2003. > > The Afghan interest can not be to gratitiously throw oil on the burning fires, and antagonize its own Shia population which are among the most solid supporters against the Talebans. > > The analysis of the Afghan situation here has mostly been of the action movie type, without any reality of the logistics and the risks. > > The americans would be smarter for the Afghanistan to open the negotiations with the elements of the Talebans and leave on a client state basis to some kind of the unity government. > > They would have been even smarter to play the realpolitik and have made the common cause with the Iran but it is clear the WWII Action Movie thinking is too dominant Do you research this? Or wax lyrical about how lamentable it is for the US to have so many bases in Central Asia and the Middle East? Look [Afghanistan holds peace conference amid violence and protests | Afghanistan | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/06/afghanistan-peace-conference-violence-protests-kabul-bombing) > [@](#): > > **The Guardian** > In front of an almost exclusively male gathering including representatives of Pakistan, India, Iran, Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, the US and various European countries, Ghani accused Pakistan of waging “an undeclared war”. > > He scolded western countries for attempting to negotiate with the Taliban on their own. “There are too many players running too many parallel tracks with too little clarity on who they are and what they represent,” Ghani said. “We also ask that you respect the integrity of an Afghan-owned and led consolidated process and not set up separate tracks of your own.” > > The Taliban called the Kabul Process “futile”. “Talks about peace during the presence of foreign invaders will not yield results and are meaningless,” the group said in a statement. A section of the Taliban are not interested in reconciliation, they’re more willing to bet the US will withdraw eventually, whenever that is, and then take over or at least attempt too. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/123 "2017-08-23T19:11:45Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Do you research this? Do i read, yes, better than you it seems. > [@](#): > > Or wax lyrical about how lamentable it is for the US to have so many bases in Central Asia and the Middle East? I have not said a single thing “lamenting” anything about any number or not number of bases of the Americans in the Middle East or the Central Asia. There is not one thing in anything I wrote of complaint about any number of bases for Americans. I criticized the simplistic Action Movie thinking of certain posters about how a base may be used or not given the host country situaiton and the host country politics and the security situation for that as in the Afghan case. That says absolutely nothing about the fact of the bases or approving or disapproving of their number - although apparently it is hard for some people to understand different criticisms and they can only understand Rah Rah Rah USA USA!!! cheering. My criticism of the simplistic thinking - and the factual errors in the assertions about bases is not related to any opinion about an American presence which I might be for in some cases and in others I may be against. I am against the simplistic thinking and against stupid assertions based on the simplistic thinking and the complete lack of knowledge of the region or the political situation outside of the Action Movie thinking. **For the Afghan situation** Of course you link to an article of **2017** which says very little about the past. It is a funny concept, outside of the universe of the Action Movies, the situations and the alliances evolve. > [@](#): > > A section of the Taliban are not interested in reconciliation, they’re more willing to bet the US will withdraw eventually, whenever that is, and then take over or at least attempt too. Why yes, a section is. And some sections are favorable to finding negotiation to gain access to power. That is why there were the demarches from the Talebans - who are not really one entity. Of course the USA threw away those demarches already a few years ago, so my comment is indeed a lamentation that was done, but in 2017 it is already Spilled Millk. But that does not mean that it is an intelligent analysis in realpolitik to give the refusal parties the veto of the bomb… (although the idea of the americans being clever here is a dead end one anyway so it is pure theory). Of course I wrote not a single thing about “reconciliation” - only a unity government, which in no way is an idea based on “reconciliation”, only compromise. that is your misinterpretation and interjection, from your own preoccupatoins it seems. Like how you some how invented a lamentation about bases out of the factual criticism about the simplistic thinking and factual errors about even the presence. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/124 "2017-08-23T23:24:58Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > If we ever go to war with Iran, it would end up being a disaster of epic proportions. As in the case of North Korea, “winning” would only come at a tremendously high price, and there are so many different possible adverse outcomes that winning doesn’t seem likely. Almost every credible foreign policy and defense think tank believes it’s a terrible idea. Every American administration, whether they will admit it publicly or not, thinks it would be a disastrous idea, as evidenced by the fact that they haven’t done it despite decades of talking about it. The only reason we would ever go to war with Iran is if they did something so egregriously provocative that we could not tolerate them doing it a second time. Such as sponsoring a mass casualty attack on US soil like they did in Argentina. Hezbollah bombs a Jewish Community Center in the US and it’s war, or at least deadly retaliation and then they can choose what they want to do about that. But yes, I agree with you, no more elective wars. We’re not going to attack Iran or North Korea because we fear what they might do. Going forward we attack people for what they actually do. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/125 "2017-08-24T05:12:57Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So, on the one hand, we have pure hypotheticals,. So, deciding against voting for Trump — or Clinton — based on their records and actions is a pure hypothetical ? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/126 "2017-08-24T08:09:32Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Tehran has been using its proxies against US forces for decades and yet the US has never responded with much more than strong words, podium pounding, and economic sanctions. …and the odd cyberattack… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/127 "2017-08-24T08:51:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > … Such as sponsoring a mass casualty attack on US soil like they did in Argentina. … Going forward we attack people for what they actually do. 1994, accusation of Hezbullah but no proof directly of them contre other Lebanese radical group of the time, which was still the hot war with the Israelis (ended year 2000[li]). No proof the Iran itself sponsored directly and in this era of the late 1980s to the 1990s the Hezbullah is much more funded by the Shia diaspora in the West Africa, not the teleguidance of the Iran. [/li] so by the logic displayed, nothing has changed, the 3rd hand association will be enough to convince you. The pig only needs some make up to secuce. [\*: it is not to justify or defend the idea of the attacking of the civilian 3rd party targets, to note this, it is the understanding of the internal logic of the Lebanese movements of this time, the Shia of the south who considered themselves in a hot war against the direct Israeli occupation of the southern Lebanon by the military force. A logic that was removed and changed their approach in 2000.] ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/128 "2017-08-24T12:11:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only reason we would ever go to war with Iran is if they did something so egregriously provocative that we could not tolerate them doing it a second time. Such as sponsoring a mass casualty attack on US soil like they did in Argentina. Hezbollah bombs a Jewish Community Center in the US and it’s war, or at least deadly retaliation and then they can choose what they want to do about that. > > But yes, I agree with you, no more elective wars. We’re not going to attack Iran or North Korea because we fear what they might do. Going forward we attack people for what they actually do. Israel is also a factor in this, and not an insignificant one at that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/129 "2017-08-24T12:14:20Z")
Meanwhile, this development complicates matters significantly for US military and political operations in the Middle East, and it is probably Trump’s first serious diplomatic blunder with consequences. **Qatar is restoring diplomatic ties with Iran.** [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle\_east/qatar-restores-diplomatic-ties-to-iran-amid-regional-crisis/2017/08/23/dbd46aa2-887b-11e7-96a7-d178cf3524eb\_story.html?utm\_term=.c54010c4b81a](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/qatar-restores-diplomatic-ties-to-iran-amid-regional-crisis/2017/08/23/dbd46aa2-887b-11e7-96a7-d178cf3524eb_story.html?utm_term=.c54010c4b81a) Remember, folks, it’s Qatar, not Saudi Arabia, that hosts a major air base in the Middle East. This also has the serious potential to inflame the unrest that is already happening in Saudi Arabia’s eastern provinces near Dhahran, Al Khobar, and Dammam. And Turkey is on record as opposing Saudi Arabia’s actions in its dispute with Qatar. This is Qatar’s middle finger to the Kingdom’s attempts to bully smaller neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289/130 "2017-08-24T15:49:57Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > So, deciding against voting for Trump — or Clinton — based on their records and actions is a pure hypothetical ? What did I not make clear here? NOBODY CARES. The election ended nine months ago. Clinton is done. Trump is president and doing his best to drive the country over a cliff. But by all means, continue to waste your energy justifying your vote to yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-what-the-hell-do-we-do-now/794289.md?page=6)