# Afghanistan's Dirty Little Secret **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556 "2010-09-04T00:02:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/1 "2010-09-04T00:02:56Z")
Whether you’re in favor of our involvement in Afghanistan or against it, [this report](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/29/INF21F2Q9H.DTL#ixzz0yF8jc1iR) is rather interesting, not to mention bizarre. More proof that it’s a whole other world there. (As if more were needed.) ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/2 "2010-09-04T01:02:04Z")
Hmmm. If I were guessing it is something being blown out of proportion in order to make the violence committed there justified. After all us westerners are supposed to hate the gays, right? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/3 "2010-09-04T01:06:49Z")
I considered that could be the case, but the writer being a Pulitzer Prize-winning _New York Times_ writer who teaches at Stanford made me give him the benefit of the doubt. I confess I don’t know that much about Brinkley otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/4 "2010-09-04T02:35:04Z")
> [@linked article](#): > > “How can you fall in love if you can’t see her face,” 29-year-old Mohammed Daud told reporters. “We can see the boys, so we can tell which are beautiful.” It seems sharia may be superseded by the Law of Unintended Consequences. Also: How does a Pulitzer Prize-winning writer manage to confuse a declarative with an interrogative? ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/5 "2010-09-04T03:49:13Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Hmmm. If I were guessing it is something being blown out of proportion in order to make the violence committed there justified. After all us westerners are supposed to hate the gays, right? No, hate the pedophiles. Did we read the same article? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/6 "2010-09-04T04:06:40Z")
The article doesn’t say how the men meet their boys. It ends by asserting that the boys are raped, but doesn’t really say why we should presume that to be so beyond that it’s “grown men and young teens”. For all we know, the boys have been sold some sort of story that that sperm makes them stronger, or they know that they can gain riches via this, so they choose it as a “profession” early on. It might be that they’re sold off by their families – which is little different than is done with daughters to their prospective husbands. None of these options are “good”, but it’s a far sight better than the impression the article seems to be willing to give that children are being kidnapped from the countryside and forcibly raped. I suspect that there’s more ritual or economics to it than that. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/7 "2010-09-04T04:58:15Z")
The ancient Romans were in the habit of doing something quite similar. It was considered a perfectly fine thing to do. (Not that I’m condoning it, obviously, but it’s not outside human experience.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/8 "2010-09-04T05:29:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The article doesn’t say how the men meet their boys. It mentions “dances” where the boys dress up as girls with men leering at them and throwing money at them. Seems like prostitution based on that limited information. These boys probably have no other ways of making that kind of money. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/9 "2010-09-04T06:07:53Z")
> [@HowieReynolds](#): > > It mentions “dances” where the boys dress up as girls with men leering at them and throwing money at them. Seems like prostitution based on that limited information. These boys probably have no other ways of making that kind of money. Most prostitution is more like, I/we/the family is desparate, and so they’ll accept anything just to survive. Kids who are prostituted in such a manner are probably going to be malnourished, uneducated, and probably not the prettiest specimens. Going from there to trained dancers, finely dressed, who can actually register as a status item in the eyes of the general populace is a bit of a rift. That doesn’t make it _not_ prostitution, but it’s certainly of a kind that’s got a bit more a story to it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/10 "2010-09-04T06:15:42Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Whether you’re in favor of our involvement in Afghanistan or against it, [this report](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/29/INF21F2Q9H.DTL#ixzz0yF8jc1iR) is rather interesting, not to mention bizarre. ) What does the report say? Could you not have cut and paste a little? or summarize it? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/11 "2010-09-04T06:53:50Z")
Trust a Western journalist to get a “scoop” which everyone and his uncle knew about. It ain’t a secret. And has not been one for oh about 400 years. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/12 "2010-09-04T07:49:41Z")
Well, it seems as though the Spartan lifestyle is alive and well. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/13 "2010-09-04T08:13:22Z")
> **[Bacha bazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi)** > > Bacha bāzī (Persian: بچه بازی, lit. 'boy play') is a slang term used in Afghanistan, Pakistan and in the history of Turkestan for a custom involving child sexual abuse by older men of young adolescent males or boys, called dancing boys, often involving sexual slavery and child prostitution. Though outlawed, bacha bazi is still practiced in certain regions of Afghanistan. Force and coercion are common, and security officials of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan stated they w During times under... [An actual dancer](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNUxq8rI6lM) (YouTube) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/14 "2010-09-04T08:46:47Z")
Could some one term it what it is actually, pedestry, pedophillia etc. Rather than use a term which implies something else like _Bacha Bazi_ literally “playing with children”. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/15 "2010-09-05T01:33:20Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Trust a Western journalist to get a “scoop” which everyone and his uncle knew about. It ain’t a secret. And has not been one for oh about 400 years. The writer acknowledges that. But it _is_ a secret for most Westerners and that’s the point of the headline and the story. I doubt I’ve ever seen this reported on much before, and I’m constantly monitoring the news, although I have heard about it. Note, especially the bolded part, that the writer _does_ say: “All of this was so disconcerting that the Defense Department hired Cardinalli, a social scientist, to examine this mystery. **Her report, 'Pashtun Sexuality, startled not even one Afghan**.” This story was not to alert the Afghans to what they already knew. Perhaps instead of being insulting, you should read the entire story. > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > > > Whether you’re in favor of our involvement in Afghanistan or against it, [this report](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/29/INF21F2Q9H.DTL#ixzz0yF8jc1iR) is rather interesting, not to mention bizarre. ) > > What does the report say? Could you not have cut and paste a little? or summarize it? It’s a report on what appears to be socially accepted pedophilia of unusual proportions. One excerpt is: “For centuries, Afghan men have taken boys, roughly 9 to 15 years old, as lovers. Some research suggests that half the Pashtun tribal members in Kandahar and other southern towns are _bacha baz_, the term for an older man with a boy lover. Literally it means boy player. The men like to boast about it.” ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/16 "2010-09-05T03:45:09Z")
I read a very similar article sometime last year. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/17 "2010-09-05T04:40:50Z")
[Looks like boys don’t get all the fun.](http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=28727) Of the two, I’d venture to guess that far more young girls are involved, seeing as this is something across the nation rather than in a particular area, and since everyone takes a wife, whereas only a few take a bacha bazi. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/18 "2010-09-05T06:09:05Z")
Child trafficking (“voluntary” or otherwise) is a huge problem all over the world. Huge chunks of the world still openly practice child-marriage as a regular part of the social system. In many places, like Afghanistan, it is part of the culture and has been for hundreds of years. In others, it’s just old fashioned child prostitution, which each and every one of us is just an airline ticket away from finding. Look up some information on [human trafficking.](http://www.humantrafficking.org/) This is just business as usual. All the same, it’s still bad. Children run the risk of physical injury and disease, not to mention the psychological problems that one risks in any relationship with a vast power difference. Anyway, I don’t see how it’s so shocking and different when it’s boys. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/19 "2010-09-05T10:35:57Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Anyway, I don’t see how it’s so shocking and different when it’s boys. Ditto. Forced prostitution of children is hugely common in this world and always has been. I find it interesting that a man residing in Thailand, a hotbed of forced child prostitution of girls AND boys, would consider what happens in Afghanistan to indicate that the Pashtuns are “bizarre.” In fact, it’s just a different flavor of an oh-so-common form of human depravity. Forced child prostitution is NOT more morally repugnant when it is perpetrated on boys. ---
**Author:** ![SomeBodyUK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SomeBodyUK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeBodyUK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556/20 "2010-09-05T10:47:13Z")
[There’s a documentary about it on PBS](http://video.pbs.org/video/1474778660/) I’m not suprised - many Pakistanis have told me that Pashtuns are known for it, [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistans-dirty-little-secret/552556.md?page=2)