# AFI's 100 Heroes & Villains **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553 "2003-06-04T10:11:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/21 "2003-06-04T14:42:13Z")
Michael Corleone was a villian… He killed his own brother for crying out loud!He willingly engaged in ilegal activities and murdered to protect himself. He was no hero My problem was Travis Bickle… Sure he wasn’t a hero buit he was no villain… he killed a pimp and some goon to save a 13 year old prostitute He was an anti hero… ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/22 "2003-06-04T14:50:28Z")
100 Heroes & Villains?! They must be really bored over at AFI. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/23 "2003-06-04T14:58:27Z")
_To Kill a Mockingbird_ has some claims on being the Great American Novel. It hits every trigger button in society for its time and history. It’s also one of the great weird one-book wonders, a story that an author absolutely _has_ to tell but has nothing else to say. And the movie works almost as well as the book does. It was enormously courageous of the makers not to water it down for a public who were not noticeably pro-civil rights. And for all the lawyer jokes that have splatted the landscape since, the idea that a hero is someone who shows that the US is a nation of laws made for everyone is a truer and more powerful reading of our history than war or cowboy or private eye heroes. Great – and very surprising – choice. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/24 "2003-06-04T15:02:12Z")
FTR, the full list is available [here](http://www.afi.com/tv/handv.pdf) in PDF form. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > **When they were down to the top 5 heroes or so, I was thinking Indiana Jones would be #1. Perfect American hero, right? Strong, smart, brave, resourceful, and so on. But when I found out that Atticus Finch was #1… I was very pleased. They got it right.** This is exactly the conversation my wife and I had. They listed Indy as #2 and then cut to a commercial. Ms. Undhow and I look at each other and say “who the hell’s a bigger movie hero than Indy?” We try to come up with someone, but can’t. Then they name Atticus, and we both nodded and said “yup, that’s right, he _should_ hold the top spot.” Other issues: 1. Like **akennett** , I thought Michael Corleone’s placement was flat-out wrong. He really shouldn’t be on either list, as he doesn’t fit neatly into either category. ( **kingpengvin** : if Corleone’s a villain, so is Bickle; he was gonna assasinate a senatorial candidate). 2. Norman Bates as the #2 villain? Horseshit. Norman Bates evokes sympathy as well as fear. He isn’t evil so much as he is mentally disturbed. 3. Mixed feelings on the #1 and #2 villain. The Darth Vader from ANH and ESB should easily be #1. The Vader in ROTJ and the whiny kid from the prequels take a back seat to Lecter, though. 4. Clarice Starling should NOT be in the top 10 heroes. 5. Regan MacNeil (the Exorcist kid) shouldn’t be on the list; the demon that possessed her should. 6. Angela Lansbury’s character from The Manchurian Candidate should be way higher than #21. So should Max Cady from the original Cape Fear and Dr. Szell from Marathon Man. 7. Where the hell is John McClane from Die Hard? 8. Where the hell is Clint Eastwood’s Man With No Name? (and “Angel Eyes” on the villain list, for that matter). 9. Where the hell is “Khhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnn!” on the villain list? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/25 "2003-06-04T15:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PinkJasmineMonkey \* > \*\* > Unless I missed it - a glaring omission was Richard Widmark’s Tommy Udo in “Kiss of Death”. \*\* In the opening montage, they showed him pushing the wheelchair down the stairs, but he didn’t make the list. ---
**Author:** ![Judith\_Prietht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b19c9b/32.png) [@Judith\_Prietht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Judith_Prietht)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/26 "2003-06-04T15:25:16Z")
I’m giggling at the proximity of Hannibal Lecter and the Atticus Finch quote at the top of the list: “You never know someone, until you step inside their skin and walk around a little.” Just me? OK then. I don’t think Norman Bates belongs there, either. Mrs. Bates? Sure. Absolutely. I was pleased to see Marge Gunderson on the heroes list. I think Verbal Kint could have been a little higher than 48. It’s fun to go down the list and try to imagine the respective heroes and villains battling each other. George Bailey vs Regan MacNeil. Thelma and Louise vs Gordon Gekko. Robin Hood vs Jaws is a movie I would totally see. And some I think are planned. Lassie and Cruella De Vil? ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/27 "2003-06-04T15:34:43Z")
No Gandalf? That sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/28 "2003-06-04T15:37:23Z")
I _hate_ those stupid AFI “lists.” They’re basically all Blockbuster promos, and rarely go back before 1940. [checks link] Yep. Only _one silent film_ (Charlie goddam Chaplin, of course), and precious few from the 1930s. Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/29 "2003-06-04T15:43:59Z")
I can’t believe Hannibal Lecter topped Norman Bates. Yeah, Anthony Hopkins was creepy, but Anthony Perkins was _creepy as hell_. Plus Norman Bates was a more complex character: Lecter was just an inhuman force of evil, while Bates was an apparently harmless yet vaguely disturbing fellow whose gentle façade hid something twisted and deadly. That, to me, is far scarier. And I do think he counts as a villain, psychotic or no. The “Mrs. Bates” who committed the murders was just an aspect of Norman’s personality, not a different character entirely like the demon who possessed the **Exorcist** girl. Now, from a completely different line of reasoning, I still believe Vader should have been #1. The look, the voice, the mystery . . . he’s THE classic villain of all time. BTW, to **Hampshire** : Max Von Sydow played Ming in the 80’s **Flash Gordon** movie, but **furryman** was referring to Charles Middleton’s performance as Ming in the original **Flash Gordon** serials with Buster Crabbe. And I agree that Middleton’s version should have made the list somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/30 "2003-06-04T15:50:02Z")
No Luke Skywalker? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/31 "2003-06-04T15:55:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*I _hate_ those stupid AFI “lists.” They’re basically all Blockbuster promos, and rarely go back before 1940. > > [checks link] > > Yep. Only _one silent film_ (Charlie goddam Chaplin, of course), and precious few from the 1930s. > > Idiots. \*\* THANK YOU, EVE. Whenn I see “AFI” and “list” in the same sentence, I experience an involuntary spasm of eyerolling. Their “American 100” list is absolutely ludicrous, and this one sounds no better. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/32 "2003-06-04T15:58:27Z")
And by what criteria is _Lawrence of Arabia_ an American film? ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/33 "2003-06-04T16:13:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*And by what criteria is _Lawrence of Arabia_ an American film? \*\* That’s a good point. IMdB has it as a UK film. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/34 "2003-06-04T16:18:24Z")
Bad guys I was surprised they missed: Barnes (Tom Berringer) from Platoon-- I forgot his rank Tony Montoya from Scarface. No Tony? What the hell? I was surprised that Darth Vader wasn’t the #1 villain and a little dissapointed but not surprised that Tom Hank’s Toy wasn’t one of the Heroes. Schwarternegger’s Terminator is a great villain but I don’t see how the Term2 Terminator made it so high on the heroes list. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/35 "2003-06-04T16:27:52Z")
But I don’t know why anyone would get bent out of shape over this list. Sure, some people were left off and others were on who shouldn’t have been … but so what? If it were perfect, none of us would want to talk about it. These lists aren’t meant to be definitive; they’re meant to please an audience. The audience for the most part wants to see films on the list that they’ve seen - or at least heard of. Hence, no silents. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/36 "2003-06-04T16:37:24Z")
[sigh] . . . Unfortunately, a sign of the Dumbing Down of American Culture. I would think The goddam American Film Institute would have_some_ sense of film history. That is what they’re _there_ for, right? “100 Years,” my eye. Why not just be honest and call it “Stuff We Thought You Idiots Might Want to Rent at Blockbuster?” “100 Years of Heroes and villains” . . . No Douglas Fairbanks? No Theda Bara? Morons. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/37 "2003-06-04T16:38:59Z")
Eve, lissener…take a deep breath. If you don’t like it, fine…don’t watch. Personally, I love any opportunity to see film clips. My favorite parts of any Oscar telecast are the clip montages. I don’t think any AFI lists are limited to American films. I’m pretty sure **Lawrence** was also on the Top 100 list. Biggirl: they had Tony from the original **Scarface** , (1932, Paul Muni) for what it’s worth. EnolaStraight: granted, that Luke is the hero of Star Wars, so if any SW character should have been listed it would be he. But they took both Han Solo and Obi-Wan instead–probably because they’re actual likable characters and not whiny little jerks. Just MHO, of course. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/38 "2003-06-04T16:42:37Z")
Okay, **Eve** , who’s your top 5? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/39 "2003-06-04T16:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsc1953 \* > **I don’t think any AFI lists are limited to American films. I’m pretty sure Lawrence was also on the Top 100 list.** James Bond certainly isn’t American. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553/40 "2003-06-04T16:45:19Z")
Bear in mind the criteria that the judges were instructed to use: > [@](#): > > The Criteria > The jurors were asked to consider the following criteria while making their > selections: > \*Feature-Length Fiction Film: The film must be in narrative format, typically > more than 60 minutes in length. > \*American Film: The film must be in the English language with significant > creative and/or financial production elements from the United States. > \*Hero: For voting purposes, a “hero” was defined as a character(s) who > prevails in extreme circumstances and dramatizes a sense of morality, > courage and purpose. Though they may be ambiguous or flawed, they often > sacrifice themselves to show humanity at its best. > \*Villain: For voting purposes, a “villain” was defined as a character(s) whose > wickedness of mind, selfishness of character and will to power are sometimes > masked by beauty and nobility, while others may rage unmasked. They can > be horribly evil or grandiosely funny, but are ultimately tragic. > \*Cultural Impact: Characters who have a made a mark on American society > in matters of style and substance. > \*Legacy: Characters who elicit strong reactions across time, enriching > America’s film heritage while continuing to inspire contemporary artists and > audiences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afis-100-heroes-villains/179553.md?page=3)