# AFP: US soldiers fire into demonstration in Mosul. Ten killed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865 "2003-04-15T13:11:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/1 "2003-04-15T13:11:37Z")
The above reported by my friendly local swedish TV text service, source french AFP. Since I have not been able to find this online yet i provide my feeble attempt at translation below: > [@](#): > > In the city of Mosul today, at least ten people were killed and tens of people wounded according to french AFP. > > Eye witnessess claim that american soldiers opened fire at a crowd gathering outside an administrative compound in central Mosul. > > The crowd became more and more hostile towards the towns new ruler Mashaan al-Juburi, when he held a US-friendly speech according to witnesses. Then soldiers started firering into the crowd. > > According to a doctor at the site there were 10-12 dead and about 100 wounded. So this is obviously a preliminary, since it hasn’t reached CNN, Reuters etc as of yet. I guess information will surface with time. This incident, added to other incidents during the last couple of days, seem to imply that support for the US presence is weak, or mixed at best. The actions of the US soldiers (with the limited information available to me as of yet) suggests that they may not have the means, nor the understanding to handle Iraqi sentiments and swing public opinion in their favor. Anyone care to comment? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/2 "2003-04-15T13:27:44Z")
Has no one learned that commenting in response to breaking news only leads to foolishness when the full details come out? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/3 "2003-04-15T13:33:01Z")
What **SmackFu** said. I know that there’s enjoyment to be had from being first to bat on an issue, but maybe we ought to consider waiting to launch threads based on breaking news items until at least two independent sources have confirmed them. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/4 "2003-04-15T13:34:17Z")
[Sky News Story](http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12287738,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/5 "2003-04-15T13:36:28Z")
Crap wrong link. [Here is the right one](http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12287762,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/6 "2003-04-15T13:44:40Z")
**SmackFu, El\_Kabong** : I do acknowledge that as of now this is only reported by AFP (and I also noted so in my OP). It may surface as something else than it seems now, or it may surface as something that never happened. If so happens I will retract my meditation. I am providing this information as is. Yes, in part I admit, for the satisfaction of having the first crack at this. And you did get it here before you could find it at FoxNews. But really, if the information proves to be correct, the thread will live, otherwise it will die. Save some ranting at my expense 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kallisti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@Kallisti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallisti)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/7 "2003-04-15T16:55:00Z")
there is no issue. Some of the people killed may have been civilians caught in the cross fire, but that’s hardly news. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/8 "2003-04-15T22:13:40Z")
Here’s the [Al Jazeera link](http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/article.asp?cu_no=1&item_no=2661&version=1&template_id=277&parent_id=258) Regardless of whether you believe the soldiers or the people in the crowd, it looks like seriously bad PR for the “liberators.” ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/9 "2003-04-15T22:24:50Z")
The plot thickens… Reuters, CNN, FoxNews and The Washington Post still don’t seem to be reporting this at all at the moment, although an incident is confirmed by the US military. Maybe my searching skills are faulty, anyone else? Or is this not deemed newsworthy by the above organizations? Yahoo news are reporting this: > **[Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](https://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=%2Fafp%2F20030415%2Fts_afp%2Firaq_worldwrap&cid=1503&ncid=1473)** > > The latest news and headlines from Yahoo! News. Get breaking news stories and in-depth coverage with videos and photos. It’s basically the same story and arab testimonys as above, but with these added comments from US sources: > [@](#): > > US troops guarding the governor said they opened fire after gunmen **on an opposite roof began shooting**. > > “ **We didn’t fire at the crowd, but at the top of the building** ,” said a US military spokesman. > > At US Central Command in Qatar, Navy Commander Charles Owens said: “We’re investigating, **all we can say now is that we did not shoot into a crowd.** ” (My Bolding) The New York Times actually has this event as a top level headline at the moment. > **[Clash in Mosul Complicates Already Troubled U.S. Arrival (Published 2003)](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/15/international/worldspecial/clash-in-mosul-complicates-already-troubled-us.html)** > > At least 10 Iraqis were reported killed today in what marines called a gun battle and Iraqis described as the shooting of unarmed civilians. The story includes this radicaly new account of events from Col. Andrew P. Frick in Mosul. (Interestingly enough in severe contradiction to the statements from navy commander Charles Owens in the Yahoo story): > [@](#): > > Col. Andrew P. Frick, commander of the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which began arriving here only two days ago, said men **in the crowd began firing at the marines**. The Americans withdrew into the building and continued to receive fire, he said. > > When they fired warning shots over the heads of people in the crowd, most of the Iraqis dispersed, he said. When shots continued to hit the governate, the marines decided anyone still in the area was hostile. > > “The marines said `OK, the fight is on,”’ Colonel Frick said. “And the marines returned accurate fire.” (My bolding) This NY tímes story also includes this new account of the events leading up to the shooting. No sources are given. > [@](#): > > Today’s firing began this morning as a group of marines tried to secure the main government building in downtown Mosul. A first attempt to secure the building by a dozen American special force soldiers last Friday ended with the Americans coming under fire and retreating. > > The building — a six-story high, block long monolith — appears to have become the focus of a test of wills between American forces pouring into the area and unknown gunmen lurking in the center of the city. Col. Robert Waltemeyer, the commander of American special operations forces here, remained in the building all day today with several hundred Marines and planned to sleep there through the night. > > This morning, roughly 130 marines secured the governate, the rough equivalent of a city hall, for a civil affairs team that planned to re-open it as a sign of normalcy in a city racked by looting and gunfire since Iraqi forces withdrew last Thursday. But a large crowd, three thousand people by the marines’ estimates, quickly formed around the building. The way this is told, and the information it includes, sounds to me like it comes from US military sources, though. These accounts from Iraqis are also reported in the NY times story: > [@](#): > > Wounded Iraqis in the city’s general hospital today gave a starkly different version of events. They said a controversial Iraqi opposition leader, Mishaan Al-Jabouri, started speaking to the crowd and hailing the arrival of American forces in Mosul. > > “They began throwing stones,” said Fateh Tata Abed, a 32-year-old man shot in the chest and upper arm. “And the American forces started shooting at us.” > > A second man, 39-year-old Sadullah Ghanal, gave roughly the same version of events. “After we threw stones at Mishaan Jabouri,” he said, “the Americans started to fire on us.” Basically the same as before. So things seem to be very confused at the moment. Some US sources say one thing, other US sources say another, and Iraqi sources are saying something completely different. Furthermore I thought this incident was headline stuff. The New York Times too, obviously. Yet at the moment reporting seems to be fragmentary. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/10 "2003-04-15T22:35:23Z")
**errata:** thanks for posting the Al Jazeerah link! From Al-jaz, relevant to my last post: > [@](#): > > According to Ayad Hassun, another witness, trouble erupted when the crowed interrupted the governor in his speech with cries of “There is no God but God and Mohammed is his prophet.” > > Enraged by the interruption, the governor is said to have shouted back, accusing the crowd to be “members of Saddam’s Fedayeen.” Hell broke loose instantly even as the governor was escorted by some US soldiers back to his office building. Eye-witnesses said that the US soldiers climbed a building and then started firing on the crowd. > > The US military however denied that its troops had opened fire suo-motto. “We came under fire from an opposite building and our troops responded,” said a US military spokesman. He could not however say whether the gunmen, who allegedly had been firing upon the soldiers, had been killed. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/11 "2003-04-15T22:37:51Z")
\Those damn American soldiers. Trigger happy yet again! Certainly they were fired upon, but the dead left behind were certainly from those undisciplined GIs and not from the level headed, even tempered Iraqi gunmen…\ :dubious: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/12 "2003-04-15T22:42:30Z")
No US casualties. **Newcrasher** are you not troubled by your militarys contradictory accounts of this event? (see above) ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/13 "2003-04-15T23:56:49Z")
_cut-n-pasted from another thread_ My apologies for posting the same reply but to **RandySpears** credit, his thread seems to be livelier. > [@](#): > > If 2 snipers fired upon US troops with the crowd in between and if none of the US troops were hit, who do you supposed got hit? That could explain the dead and wounded. I would wait for an autopsy to see what kind of rifle round is dug out of those 10 dead bodies. > > If the US troops were firing at a rooftop from distance, the angle of their rifle might be so slight as to appear horizontal. From the crowd where they may think it is aimed at them the difference might not be important if they started to hate the US presence there anyways. > > I’d really wait for the autopsies. Unless the family refuses. So I will concure with **SmackFu** and **El\_Kabong** that more information is needed to form a viable hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/14 "2003-04-16T00:14:31Z")
We can put the questions in the OP on ice for a while if you like. What I find confusing is the scarcity of reporting on this incident. Any thoughts on that, **Slayer**? I’m also interested in what you make of all the contradictory claims? (above) ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/15 "2003-04-16T00:26:59Z")
> [@](#): > > If 2 snipers fired upon US troops with the crowd in between and if none of the US troops were hit, who do you supposed got hit? That could explain the dead and wounded. > […] > If the US troops were firing at a rooftop from distance, the angle of their rifle might be so slight as to appear horizontal. From the crowd where they may think it is aimed at them the difference might not be important if they started to hate the US presence there anyways. There are presently two versions from the US military. One states that american soldiers were fired upon from the roof. The other states that the american soldiers were fired upon from the crowd, and eventually returned fire. What do you make of this, Slayer? (see above) > [@](#): > > I would wait for an autopsy to see what kind of rifle round is dug out of those 10 dead bodies. US officials stated yesterday that they would not conduct investigations of civilian casualties (for practical reasons). So we don’t know as of yet if any autopsy will be made. ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/16 "2003-04-16T00:42:33Z")
It seems unlikely that if the soldiers were just firing at the roof their would have been so many casulties. One might suggest the people on the roof who fired at the US soldiers also fired at the hostile to US crowd but what would the motive be? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/17 "2003-04-16T01:00:44Z")
I think that the “roof version” seem a little bit unlikely, right now. It is not supported by the statements of Col. Frick (US officer in charge during the incident). Frick clearly implies that the soldiers fired at the crowd. It is also not consistent with the statements of the Iraqi people in the crowd. Speculation: The american soldiers are fired upon. There is confusion from where the shots came. Some think from a roof, some think from the crowd. Some soldiers fire at the crowd. That is the only explanation I can find for all these different accounts. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/18 "2003-04-16T01:03:02Z")
(Assuming that everyone is telling the truth, of course!) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/19 "2003-04-16T01:12:28Z")
Damn, after extensive searches for this particular news item, Ive come to the conclusion that tabloids just rehash stories on the wire with their own spin. I saw at least 10 newspapers that had the same basic facts from the original AFP article but with different added editorials and some dubious facts. I can see why Reuters, CNN, FoxNews, ABCNews and The Washington Post have not run this yet. They have absolutely no facts other than what AFP has upload. There was one item that was interesting by I couldnt find it again. It was reported that all journalists (except for the the AFP one evidently) were beng turned back from the hospital where the dead and wounded were taken by angry demonstrators and family members. So much for a chance of an autopsy. Sorry, **RandySpears** but i could not access the NYTimes article you linked which seemed to have more information than what is currently online. I therefore cannot comment on the contradiction of stories by military sources. **TheMemeWarrior**. The snipers fire upon the US soldiers on the ground. Lets say in about 10 to 15 seconds, the order is given to fire back, so now at least half a dozen rifles fire at the sniper position. The snipers would have a clear shot at first, but would have to duck and shoot without aiming, once return fire is given. Now, obviously, the snipers are bad shots to begin with if they cant hit a US soldier from an elevated position with no stress from return fire. When the US soldiers fire back, I dont think their accuracy went _up_. In fact, I think that they shot blindly down into where the crowd were scattering. 2 minutes of getting shot at and they disappear. Body count: 10 dead, 110 wounded. if each shot got a hit, thats four 30 round magazines (2 per sniper) if they were really bad shots they might have used 3 clips each and hit the same amount of people. Thats still well within the firing capabilities of an AK-47 in the span of 2 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/20 "2003-04-16T01:27:28Z")
I dont know, but when this came up, I just wasnt anxious to search and dig through the accounts to try to find facts I could twist to blame the American soldiers. Sure there are different accounts, jsut like if there was a shooting here in Washington. Different people remember things differently. But I believe in the professionalism of American soldiers over the sporadic, ragtag bands still sniping. unless you can prove otherwise. Sorry, but when this plays out, I think you will again find yourself grasping vapors when you really wanted something to blame upon the US Army. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865.md?page=2)