# AFP: US soldiers fire into demonstration in Mosul. Ten killed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865 "2003-04-15T13:11:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/41 "2003-04-16T03:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > (But I doubt it.) I just hope he gets lucky. I would not be surprised if anything–up to what **SenorBeef** said–happened. OTOH, the bottom line is this, > [@](#): > > And the US obviously must try to avoid these kinds of events if they really want to see an Iraq which is both democratic and US friendly. This makes the possibility of a set up that much more likely. But, that’s an affirmative defense we must prove in the court of public opinion. No problem. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/42 "2003-04-16T03:23:09Z")
I admit I have no facts to base that assesment on. It’s just that someone asked what their motive would be, and I thought about it a bit, and that actually seemed like a pretty good plan for the fedeyene (or however you spell it). They want to rally anti-American sentiment, and giving something to the Arab world to galvanize them against the Americans is far more effective than killing a few soldiers. It might not apply in this particular case, but I fail to see why that’s such a whacked out conspiracy theory sort of deal. It seems like a perfectly reasonable plan, given their dedication to the cause and motivation. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/43 "2003-04-16T03:35:28Z")
**dee52269:** > [@](#): > > I also emailed CNN and Fox and asked them if they have any information and when they plan on reporting the story if they do. Finally someone who takes matters into his/hers own hands! I wish i had done that. I’m looking forward to see what comes of this. **sailor:** Again, it sounds very likely that the situation were like that. If that information is from the spanish story I am grateful to you for providing it. I also wish that something like this will materialize in english soon, because i’m getting fed up with my favourite news agencies. But. Tea party? Excuse me who the h\*\*l are you talking about? What are you talking about? I certainly do not believe this was no tea party. I’d also find it very unprobable that US soldiers would just fire into a peaceful crowd for no reason. I made a summary of those statements of Col Frick of the US army, that i had posted earlier, that implied warning shots were fired and that after that a decision was made to fire at the crowd. As opposed to McDuffs scenario of random firering by individual soldiers. I can presently not say which is correct, neither can any of us. I hold neither of these to be more likely than the other. But you should rather compare your spanish reporters account to that of US military official Charles Owens above. He does not mention aggression from the crowd when describing the shootings, only one/several unidentified gunmen on a roof. And also note that Charles Owen claims now has been completely erased from the Yahoo story linked to above! So I guess his statements might not have been very accurate, then. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/44 "2003-04-16T03:49:24Z")
> [@](#): > > _SenorBeef_ > I admit I have no facts to base that assesment on. It’s just that someone asked what their motive would be, and I thought about it a bit, and that actually seemed like a pretty good plan for the fedeyene (or however you spell it). They want to rally anti-American sentiment, and giving something to the Arab world to galvanize them against the Americans is far more effective than killing a few soldiers. > > It might not apply in this particular case, but I fail to see why that’s such a whacked out conspiracy theory sort of deal. It seems like a perfectly reasonable plan, given their dedication to the cause and motivation. Well i know it was a speculation, and I acknowledge your right to speculate. Your scenario: Anti-american gunmen choosing to shoot into the anti-american crowd hoping that the crowd (and others) will believe that the americans did it. Right? In your last post you added that the gunmen would be fedayeen. Some reasons why i think it is very very unlikely, and in fact bordering on conspiratorial: - You presume that anti-american arabs think that killing other anti-american arabs for propaganda reasons is justifiable. - If the shooters were accurately identified by the crowd the effect would be the exact opposite of the one wished for. - You have no indication that the shooters were “fedayeen”. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/45 "2003-04-16T03:59:57Z")
**Beef, Beagle:** Some other kind of setup is not **quite** so unlikely. But no indications towards that yet. And maybe raging feelings, and things got out of hand in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/46 "2003-04-16T04:07:13Z")
Randy, the reason it was reported in Spanish forst may just be pure luck that a Spanish reporter was there and i would commend those stations who choose to not report until they have something reliable than start reporting what to them is still on the level of rumor. It seems there was a Spanish reporter and maybe the American networks did not have any there at the time. At any rate, my comment was just intended to give the correct impression of the atmosphere there. It was chaotic and bordering on being a riot. It seems one of the bodyguards of the guys in the building panicked and open fire, The Spanish reporter reports hearing a US officer shouting “Don’t shoot! Don’t Shoot” but he shot anyway. I think the isolated snipers on the roof scenario is much less probable that the demonstration that got out of hand. And I definietly trust an independent reporter over the US officer who, after all, is an interested party. Why would the US troops fire into the crowd if the shots were coming from the roof? The story as reported in Spanish seems most likely to me. And, as I said, I do not see any direct responsibility by US forces. It just seems the kind of thing which is likely to happen under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/47 "2003-04-16T04:11:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Well i know it was a speculation, and I acknowledge your right to speculate. > > Your scenario: > > Anti-american gunmen choosing to shoot into the anti-american crowd hoping that the crowd (and others) will believe that the americans did it. Right? In your last post you added that the gunmen would be fedayeen. > > Some reasons why i think it is very very unlikely, and in fact bordering on conspiratorial: > > - You presume that anti-american arabs think that killing other anti-american arabs for propaganda reasons is justifiable. \*\* Well, I admit that’s unsavory, but if these are die-hard anti-American militant Islamic type (the sort I’ve had the impression were flowing into Iraq before the war to fight Americans), they might see it as acceptable casualties if the result is a galvanized middle eastern hatred towards America - breaking a few eggs for an omellete, and all that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > - If the shooters were accurately identified by the crowd the effect would be the exact opposite of the one wished for. \*\* True, that would be the biggest practical flaw - but if you’ve got an anti-American crowd in the first place, there’s a good chance most of them are going to place the blame on the Americans regardless of what they see. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > - You have no indication that the shooters were “fedayeen”. \*\* True - I was just speculating on the motive. It seems that those still resisting are die-hard Iraqi nationals who don’t want to see US influence in their country, or perhaps a militant anti-American Islamic type, of the sort that came into the country right before the war. In the former case, it’s unlikely that they’d injure and kill their fellow countrymen to cause such a reaction - but if it were the latter, the overall response might be worth it, in their view. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/48 "2003-04-16T04:14:37Z")
…human shields–mortaring civilians fleeing Basra–soldiers forced to fight at gunpoint–soldiers fighting because they fear for their families–destroying the water treatment plant at Basra–storing weapons in schools, hospitals, and homes–SAMs, howiters, or tanks placed by all the preceding locations–suicide vests–torture chambers–Saddam’s Lion Cubs… What is implausible about a regime loyalist shooting into the crowd again? Other than the lack of any actual evidence, of course. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/49 "2003-04-16T11:28:39Z")
I should just make the point that it is possible for american soldiers to have been shot at and hit without being hurt, thanks to the body armor they wear. It’s really quite impressive, these days. ---
**Author:** ![lander2k2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@lander2k2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lander2k2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/50 "2003-04-16T11:39:39Z")
I’d like to throw in a couple more news stories in case anyone still thinks this is someone’s fictional creation. > **[US bans media from protests](https://www.theage.com.au/national/us-bans-media-from-protests-20030416-gdvjtw.html)** [http://www.news.com.au/common/story\_page/0,4057,6291696^1702,00.html](http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6291696%5E1702,00.html) Seriously, did anyone out there really believe the American occupation would go down smoothly with the locals? I hardly think it is a surprise. What would be a surprise is if this is the last story of its kind. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/51 "2003-04-16T11:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > Do anyone know if Mosul is Shia, Sunni or Kurd country? Mosul is predominantly Sunni and Arab. A good part of Iraq’s officer corps supposedly came out of Mosul. It is quite tense right now as it borders on the Kurdish enclaveand the area has a large Kurdish presense, but majority sentiment there is pretty anti-Kurdish ( or at least anti-Kurdish control ). Apparently it got pretty ugly when Kurdish fighters entered the city a few days ago. I’m not surprised it is particularly tense. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/52 "2003-04-16T13:06:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lander2k2 \* > [http://www.news.com.au/common/story\_page/0,4057,6291696^1702,00.html](http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6291696%5E1702,00.html) That link pretty much sums it up as > [@](#): > > US troops opened fire on a crowd hostile to the new pro-US governor in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul today, killing at least 10 people and injuring as many as 100, witnesses and doctors said. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/53 "2003-04-16T13:31:47Z")
**SenorBeef, Beagle:** I don’t wan’t to go any further into discussing the likelyness of things happening in the particular way of SenorBeefs speculation above. I have stated the main reasons why I think it is far-fetched. I note that you acknowledge them all as valid. I do believe that you would agree that there are more likely scenarios. So let’s hang on to our personal assessments on this, and move on. **Beagle:** Your enumeration of atrocities mixes confirmed fact with alleged fact. Thats not the right path, young Grasshopper. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/54 "2003-04-16T13:33:21Z")
**Sailor, lander:** Yep that link seem based on the original AFP story. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/55 "2003-04-16T13:40:40Z")
A thing that has pissed me off with on-line news reporting while following the evolvement of this story: It seems that texts are changed continually, with no record of the changes, as new facts / claims emerge. This is in my book against the spirit of balanced, accurate and unbiased reporting. Any thoughts on this? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/56 "2003-04-16T13:51:05Z")
…but the NY times seem to be handling things the right way and keep all different versions online. Here are updated accounts of the incident, painting a similar picture to **sailors** spanish story: > [@](#): > > Col. Andrew P. Frick, commander of the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which began arriving here only two days ago, said the crowd was hostile toward the Americans. “There was a lot of pushing and shoving,” he said. “A couple of drivers were spit on.” > > The crowd started beating Paul Watson, a reporter for The Los Angeles Times, who was rescued by the marines. Later, men in the crowd started shooting, and the marines withdrew into the building but continued to receive fire, Colonel Frick said. After the marines fired warning shots, most of the people dispersed, the colonel said. But when shots continued to hit the building, Colonel Frick said, "the marines said, `O.K., the fight is on,’ " and they returned fire. > > The shooting went on for 10 to 15 minutes, until American planes arrived and the gunmen scattered. Colonel Frick said he did not know how many Iraqis had been killed. > > Wounded Iraqis in the city’s general hospital today gave a different version of events. They said an Iraqi opposition leader, Mishaan al-Jabouri, started speaking to the crowd and hailing the arrival of American forces in Mosul. > > It was unclear how Mr. Jabouri, who has been in exile in Syria and whose record includes charges of corruption and theft, got into Mosul. On Monday, he told French journalists that he had been appointed the new governor of Mosul, a claim denied by American officials. But his message angered the crowd, Iraqis said. “They began throwing stones,” said Fateh Tata Abed, a 32-year-old man shot in the chest and upper arm. “And the American forces started shooting at us.” So what to make of the issue of Mr. Jabouri then? It does seem likely that he was there, held a speech, and that the americans wanted to appoint him governor. To me. What do you guys think? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/57 "2003-04-16T13:52:32Z")
Link to new NY times version: > **[A NATION AT WAR: MOSUL; At Least 10 Iraqis Are Dead In Clashes in Northern...](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/16/world/a-nation-at-war-mosul-at-least-10-iraqis-are-dead-in-clashes-in-northern-iraq.html)** > > Tension mounts in Mosul, where American marines trying to secure government building clash with thousands of Iraqi protesters; at least 10 Iraqis are killed; marines say they were fired upon first, but wounded Iraqis tell diffent story; say... ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/58 "2003-04-16T14:00:23Z")
**Tamerlane:** thanks for the info! ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/59 "2003-04-16T14:10:44Z")
Posted by **Duck Duck Goose** in the other thread on this subject > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## How come this story hasn’t even been mentioned on CNN and BBC? > > Dunno why CNN hasn’t got it yet, but the BBC does, and it’s hit GoogleNews, and Reuters has picked it up. > > [http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm...storyID=2575532](http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm...storyID=2575532) > > ## quote: > > U.S.: At Least 7 Iraqis Killed in Mosul Protest > Wed April 16, 2003 07:52 AM ET > AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar (Reuters) - At least seven Iraqis were killed by U.S. forces during a violent demonstration in the northern city of Mosul on Wednesday, a U.S. official at Central Command in Qatar said on Thursday. > > Brigadier General Vincent Brooks said demonstrators fired at marines and special operations forces near a government building the Americans had occupied in the center of the city. > > “Fire was directed at the marines and special operations forces in this complex. It was aim fire and aim fire was returned against some of the demonstrators, against some of the agitators climbing the wall of the compound. It was lethal fire,” he told a daily news conference. > > ## He said at least seven people were killed and a number wounded. > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/2951789.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/2951789.stm) > > ## quote: > > Last Updated: Wednesday, 16 April, 2003, 04:22 GMT 05:22 UK > > US forces have denied responsibility for the deaths of at least 10 people in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, after a shooting incident there on Tuesday. > > Witnesses said US troops fired into a crowd growing increasingly hostile to a speech being given by the town’s newly appointed governor. > > A US spokesman said troops were returning fire from a nearby building and did not aim into the crowd. > > \< snip \> > > ## Some reports suggest up to 15 people were killed in Mosul, with between 60 and 100 people injured. So it seems that everyone but CNN are on the train now. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865/60 "2003-04-16T14:18:16Z")
And CNN. Posted by **aahala**. > [@](#): > > CNN’s version is here: > > [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...main/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afp-us-soldiers-fire-into-demonstration-in-mosul-ten-killed/168865.md?page=4)