# African-American neighborhood does not want a Trader Joe's **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538 "2014-02-05T00:55:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/61 "2014-02-05T15:22:43Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I am specifically talking about the one in Evanston and in another location (which fails me at the moment) but its on the northside as well. I like to purchase corn beef and rye. I can purchase the rye at Trader Joes but I can’t find a TJ’s that (1) sells corned beef and (2) slices that corned beef to my weight specifications. If you know of one, let me know, I like TJs and would like go there more often. I have gone to the one in River North, the one on Lincoln just north of Addison (closest to me), and the one on Diversey, plus one out in the NW burbs (though that one not in quite some time). I can’t say I ever noticed their corned beef selection because that’s not something I buy. But saying “they don’t slice corned beef to order” is not at all the same thing as saying they aren’t a real grocery store, or that they only carry yuppie party food, or that Trader Joe’s is an undesirable store to have in a low-income neighborhood because it doesn’t serve the residents. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/62 "2014-02-05T15:36:01Z")
Interesting quote from **Terr** ’s article - > [@](#): > > A company owned by African-Americans in Portland had been slated to build it. Apparently they don’t want jobs for anyone, black or white, because bringing revenue and customers into the neighborhood might raise their rents. They would rather live in a shit hole, as long as it is a cheap shit hole. Wouldn’t any development of the neighborhood, no matter what form it took, have the potential of the same effect? What do they want built there - a liquor store? A check cashing place? A homeless shelter? Or maybe they could build a recycling center, and then the locals could complain about environmental racism. Or just leave it a vacant lot, and hire some local to sweep out the syringes and condoms once a week or so. That would attract foot traffic, and not drive up the rents. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/63 "2014-02-05T15:37:26Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > I have gone to the one in River North, the one on Lincoln just north of Addison (closest to me), and the one on Diversey, plus one out in the NW burbs (though that one not in quite some time). I can’t say I ever noticed their corned beef selection because that’s not something I buy. > > But saying “they don’t slice corned beef to order” is not at all the same thing as saying they aren’t a real grocery store, or that they only carry yuppie party food, or that Trader Joe’s is an undesirable store to have in a low-income neighborhood because it doesn’t serve the residents. I was going to comment on the whole “sliced-to-order corned beef as a litmus test for street cred” thing, but you did so much better that I can only tip my hat. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/64 "2014-02-05T15:40:24Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Can’t really speak to the specifics here, but this caught my eye (in **Terr** ’s linked article): > > Where’s my land at 1/6 of the market price? I’d like in on that deal. I don’t know how these sorts of things work, but I know that it’s common for shopping malls and office buildings to give their “anchor tenants” insanely good deals in order to keep them there and attract other tenants. You might imagine that the deal had some sort of requirement that TJ’s operate a store on the site for a particular period of time. It may not be as uncommon a deal as it sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/65 "2014-02-05T15:56:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Interesting quote from **Terr** ’s article - > > > [@](#): > > > > A company owned by African-Americans in Portland had been slated to build it. Obviously class traitors. Or Uncle Toms. You know how the argument goes. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/66 "2014-02-05T16:00:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …Wouldn’t any development of the neighborhood, no matter what form it took, have the potential of the same effect? What do they want built there - a liquor store? A check cashing place? A homeless shelter? Or maybe they could build a recycling center, and then the locals could complain about environmental racism. > > Or just leave it a vacant lot, and hire some local to sweep out the syringes and condoms once a week or so. That would attract foot traffic, and not drive up the rents. > > Regards, > Shodan Why don’t you plug “Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and Alberta Street, Portland, OR” into Google Maps, and take a tour of the area on street view. If that’s how the African-American community is managing their development then they’re doing an excellent job. It’s not anything like the stereotype you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/67 "2014-02-05T16:07:01Z")
[**IMd** makes a pretty good point](https://www.google.com/maps/preview/place/NE+Martin+Luther+King+Jr+Blvd+%26+NE+Alberta+St/@45.559077,-122.661571,3a,90y,326.59h,54.52t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1snSE9x-fzalQLlyZCNdFLgA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x5495a71a009e8947:0x369bda27729ad106!6m1!1e1). The intersection in question looks quite nice; it’s got a brand new gym across from it, and a new-looking Pizza Hut on the facing corner. The lot is an apparently well-maintained grass field. Of course, “we don’t want businesses that aren’t for black people” is still a rather unfortunate attitude to take. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/68 "2014-02-05T16:08:08Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why don’t you plug “Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and Alberta Street, Portland, OR” into Google Maps, and take a tour of the area on street view. If that’s how the African-American community is managing their development then they’re doing an excellent job. > > It’s not anything like the stereotype you describe. Sorry, but in Shodan’s world, any community that is primarily non-white is full of drug users, drunkards, and people who refuse to work and try to take jobs from others. Your… “facts”… don’t really matter. ---
**Author:** ![Nom\_de\_Plume](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85f322/32.png) [@Nom\_de\_Plume](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nom_de_Plume)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/69 "2014-02-05T16:13:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Things are going to get kind of Grimm for them. I like what you did there, but, apparently that will not happen until after the Olympics! Stupid NBC. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/70 "2014-02-05T16:14:06Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why don’t you plug “Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and Alberta Street, Portland, OR” into Google Maps, and take a tour of the area on street view. If that’s how the African-American community is managing their development then they’re doing an excellent job. > > It’s not anything like the stereotype you describe. This. It is possible to improve lower income neighborhoods with stores and shops designed to fulfill the needs of that community, but it is a slow and deliberate process that must be made with the full cooperation of that neighborhood. It doesn’t matter if the proposed Trader Joes was going to be built by an African-American company or not. What matters is the end result of that store being there. It’s not like lower income communities don’t have previous examples to draw from, both in the Portland area and elsewhere. BTW, someone previously mentioned in this thread that maybe when the people that get priced out of their own neighborhood they might luck into an even better neighborhood, as if there were some secret uninhabited low-cost neighborhood close to jobs and grocery stores that the affluent and real estate agents know nothing about? Riiiight. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/71 "2014-02-05T16:29:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I will not claim that it has never happened. I have seen black politicians pull stunts like this over specific legislation when they were looking to bargain for some other deal. However, it is not a trend or a common event. > > Gentrification was explained, above. Poor people live in poor housing, (generally renting), because that is what they can afford. If a neighborhood is suddenly “invaded” (bad word, but there is not a good alternative), by people trying to make the property more valuable, the poor people are forced out to places that are even poorer. > > The process looks something like this: someone is looking to put up a trendy shop, entertainment location, or housing and the prices in the poor neighborhood are incredibly low. They make the gamble to make the purchase, anyway. (Good on them, American Dream and all that.) Against the odds, they are successful. Now others are willing to make similar investments before the prices rise. Pretty soon, the area becomes a desirable location. Landlords in the neighborhood who have let their property go to hell, see an opportunity to make a quick buck, so they sell to the incoming investors who then evict the current tenants in order to build something “better” for which they will have to charge more money in order to recoup their investment. Landlords in the neighborhood who have maintained their property are going to find their property taxes going up as the general value rises. At that point, many will decide to raise their own rents to take advantage of the better income available. Even if they choose to hold rents at the lower rates in deference to their poorer tenants, rising taxes will force them to raise those rents at some point. > > No one is trying to hurt the poor people, but gentrification does harm them. When cities (looking to increase their tax revenues), participate with the gentrification, community groups are going to resists such efforts. > > I have heard of efforts to restore poorer neighborhoods to a more livable level, but I have not heard of any that have been successful, because even efforts to stabilize a deteriorating neighborhood are liable to result in gentrification and the displacement of the poor. Public housing was an effort to solve this dilemma from the 1930s through the 1960s, although, by the late 1950s it had pretty clearly failed. There is no doubt this process occurs, and it affects people in ways that have nothing to do with race per se - consider a pensioner who has lived all her life in her house, is now on a fixed income, and due to gentrification can no longer afford her property taxes. Thing is, to what extent should city planners attempt to fossilize development to ensure that the needs of this particular set of residents are catered to - and only them? People and populations change all the time. To an extent, this is not a bad thing, even if it causes some folks to be displaced. When it comes to America’s race/class issue, the real subtext of this problem is the assumption that a particular population - the urban Black poor - are unlikely to experience much significant social mobility. Seems to me that is the root problem. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/72 "2014-02-05T16:29:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [**IMd** makes a pretty good point](https://www.google.com/maps/preview/place/NE+Martin+Luther+King+Jr+Blvd+%26+NE+Alberta+St/@45.559077,-122.661571,3a,90y,326.59h,54.52t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1snSE9x-fzalQLlyZCNdFLgA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x5495a71a009e8947:0x369bda27729ad106!6m1!1e1). The intersection in question looks quite nice; it’s got a brand new gym across from it, and a new-looking Pizza Hut on the facing corner. The lot is an apparently well-maintained grass field. That’s too bad - both of those businesses will price local people out of the market. > [@](#): > > Of course, “we don’t want businesses that aren’t for black people” is still a rather unfortunate attitude to take. Even if a business is owned by black people, they don’t want it building in their neighborhood. > [@](#): > > Leaders of the Portland African American Leadership Forum said they were pushing back against the city’s history of displacing African Americans, not Trader Joe’s planned store at Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and Alberta Street. > > “The Majestic deal is the just the latest in this long history,” Former state senator Avel Gordly said in a press conference that attracted a couple dozen attendees. Two obvious points - [ol][li]Nobody is going to be displaced from a vacant lot, and[/li][li]if they are concerned about rents, why didn’t they object when the Pizza Hut went in?[/ol][/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/73 "2014-02-05T16:36:49Z")
Just to add a different viewpoint, I wouldn’t want a Trader Joe’s in my town, either. Some of the reasons overlap with the protesters currently under discussion. Even as a small New England town full of palefaces that has one (1) grocery store within its bounds and no other for 6-10 miles, a TJ’s would be a detriment here. It would also likely come only with the sort of tax breaks and concessions that make it somewhere between no contribution to the tax base, and a burden. I don’t speak only for myself; the specific topic came up at a business development commission meeting and of all the sorts of businesses to think about soliciting, specialty food stores like TJs were roundly dismissed. Speaking for myself, as a moderately devoted foodie, small-scale gourmet, accomplished plain cook with continuing aspirations to higher levels and transplant who has grown tired of the bland New England foodscape (62 kinds of jam, choose strawberry or grape)… I have never found a use for Trader Joe’s in my provender provision. Yes, I do see them as a limited substitute for a grocery that panders to yuppie and post-yup couples. Their selection is limited and their prices are high if you need to feed more than two people - while one pack of seafood skewers is not a wallet-breaker, four of them for one family meal is. I also don’t buy ANY prepared foods, so a huge selection of take-home-and-cook goods, no matter how exotic or high in quality, is no asset to me. I’ve shopped TJs at intervals over the last decade. Have yet to come away with a different opinion - and by most measures I am in the dead center of their demographic. I am in a town of people who are in that same demographic… and the collective opinion is NIMBY. An economically disadvantaged minority in a depressed part of a city would turn that opinion up to 11… expensive, niche, unlikely to bring any significant economic benefit, and very likely the advance guard for a wave of 21st-century yupsterism. I’d say no thanks in that case, too… how about a nice full-service Safeway instead? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/74 "2014-02-05T16:48:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This. It is possible to improve lower income neighborhoods with stores and shops designed to fulfill the needs of that community, but it is a slow and deliberate process that must be made with the full cooperation of that neighborhood. It doesn’t matter if the proposed Trader Joes was going to be built by an African-American company or not. What matters is the end result of that store being there. It’s not like lower income communities don’t have previous examples to draw from, both in the Portland area and elsewhere. BTW, someone previously mentioned in this thread that maybe when the people that get priced out of their own neighborhood they might luck into an even better neighborhood, as if there were some secret uninhabited low-cost neighborhood close to jobs and grocery stores that the affluent and real estate agents know nothing about? Riiiight. Would not any improvements made to a lower-income neighbourhood inevitably result in rents going up, less-poor people moving in, and thus gentrification? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/75 "2014-02-05T16:56:09Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Would not any improvements made to a lower-income neighbourhood inevitably result in rents going up, less-poor people moving in, and thus gentrification? Not necessarily. What do you think the result would be if sweetheart deals like the one offered Trader Joes was instead offered to local businesses already established and employing locally, and/or people in that neighborhood that would like to start a small business and employ locally? This way, the money that comes into the neighborhood is earned by those in the neighborhood and stays in the neighborhood, creating a slow spiral upwards. How many times have you heard “People need a hand up, not a hand out”? This is one way to go about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/76 "2014-02-05T16:59:23Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Sorry, but in Shodan’s world, any community that is primarily non-white is full of drug users, drunkards, and people who refuse to work and try to take jobs from others. Your… “facts”… don’t really matter. I’m going to mod note this. Karrius, please don’t try to guess at the motivations of other posters and then procede to mock them for your own suppositions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/77 "2014-02-05T17:00:10Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:72, topic:680538”] [li]if they are concerned about rents, why didn’t they object when the Pizza Hut went in?[/li][/QUOTE] Is this a poor joke? Nobody ever looked at a Pizza Hut and said “Gee, now that a Pizza Hut is here the surrounding property rates are going to skyrocket! I better buy now, because this is just the thing that will bring in the rich yuppies!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/78 "2014-02-05T17:00:45Z")
**TomnDebb** did a good bit on Gentrification and the challenges. It is interesting how gentrification has become a pejorative. If you OWN your property, you love it - it means that what you have is now worth more. Parking a coffee shop next to Trader Joes is a smart business move. **Czarcasm** says that this type of work "“must be made with the full cooperation of that neighborhood.” Well, what if the neighborhood is not in agreement? Some might want the new store on the lot. It might drive up the business to other local stores. I don’t know who elected the spokesperson for the locals - but I wonder if they really represent all interests in that area. Trader Joes has everything I need to shop - it has fresh meat, cold cuts, produce, bread, condiments, etc. The prices are comparable to the local big box grocer - you just don’t get a choice. They sell their mayo, instead of have 4 rows of mayo from different producers. If you want mayo - they have it though. Some of this reminds me of Oceanside, CA. The town council passed an ordinance to put a cap on certain types of service stores (dry cleaners, show shine, tattoo parlors, and barbers). See - that area has a lot of enlisted Marines, but the town council wanted to start bringing in more upscale stores to serve the bedroom community it was becoming (instead of just being cheap places for enlisted Marines). Made for an interesting debate (no clue what the resolution was). ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/79 "2014-02-05T17:01:21Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > I read this article last night, and had a similar WTF reaction. How dare they try to bring in a quality store (with good prices) to an oppressed population! > > Whole Foods made headlines recently in Chicago when they got the go-ahead to build a store in the famously dangerous Englewood neighborhood. Much joking and speculation about needing armed guards to keep the whole store from getting shoplifted, but no one (not significantly, anyway) saying it shouldn’t be there at all. A couple years ago, I was at a Whole Paycheck (I mean, Whole Foods) in a VERY affluent St. Louis suburb, and that store had an armed guard! That was quite surprising for me to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538/80 "2014-02-05T17:06:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is this a poor joke? Nobody ever looked at a Pizza Hut and said “Gee, now that a Pizza Hut is here the surrounding property rates are going to skyrocket! I better buy now, because this is just the thing that will bring in the rich yuppies!” :rolleyes: Sure, but was the spot offered to a local pizza joint first? Is it franchised by a local owner? Is it the first step in forcing out local shops? Coronado, CA does not allow any chains stores as I recall. No Starbucks, but there are locally owned coffee shops. No Baskin Robbins, but there is a local ice cream parlor. I have no idea how they wrote the law, but that was their attempt to keep Coronado from looking like every other Southern California beachfront community. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-american-neighborhood-does-not-want-a-trader-joes/680538.md?page=5)