# African Americans are owed no more by the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452 "2000-02-08T19:09:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/61 "2000-02-10T16:46:00Z")
John John, I think the distinction is that there are no remnants left of the institutions that engaged in the slave trade within the African continent. The US government of today, however, is the direct desendant of a government that tolerated and oft times encouraged slavery and segregation. That said, I think it is too late for reparations. I think those that are demanding them are doing so to bring some awareness to the American people of their country’s brutal pass. Reparations is simply an opening bid in a dialog and negotiation that they hope will eventually reach a settlement that results in acknowledgement. * * * Elmer J. Fudd, Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/62 "2000-02-10T17:25:00Z")
I am for reparations for one simple reason: My anscestors were forced to the United states and placed in endentured servitude, had their land taken or were conscripted in the military. I have good claims against Germany, Russia, Lithuania, The state of Pennsylvania and the US Government. WIth a little research, I could probably make a case against England as well. I want my share of the swag, DAMMIT! If the blacks get something, I get something too! * * * “The robbed that smile, Steal something from the thief.” —WS, Othello I.III.204 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/63 "2000-02-10T17:31:00Z")
Just an afterthought, don’t African Americans have a form of reparations in EEOC and anti-discrimination laws? What I mean is that a current descendant of slaves, when encountering some vestige of racism (assumedly left over from our slave owning past) can file suit and be compensated. THe current system, in my mind, allows current slave descendants the ability to be compensated when they suffer from their legacy. After all, the arguments for affirmitave action and the EEOC are that the damage caused by slavery nesecitate such “repairs” to the system. ---
**Author:** ![StarvinMarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@StarvinMarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvinMarvin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/64 "2000-02-10T19:35:00Z")
Wow! alot happens in 24 hours. Well I’ll ad my 2 cents soon enough. * * * "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. " Jonathan Swift ---
**Author:** ![StarvinMarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@StarvinMarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvinMarvin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/65 "2000-02-10T20:28:00Z")
Nobody said wait for me. Continue on. Perhaps your commentaries and thoughts will help me with my “block” right now. “Diahhrea of the mouth, writers constipation” makes you wonder who thinks this stuff up, and how old they are… 🙂 * * * "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. " Jonathan Swift ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/66 "2000-02-10T20:44:00Z")
Mr.Fudd said > [@](#): > > The US government of today, however, is the direct desendant of a government that tolerated and oft times encouraged slavery and segregation. Perhaps, but it has changed greatly. There are many new laws, many new members of government and so on. Whether it is a descendant of the government of slavery days, it is not a “vestige” of slavery. If my anscestors had had slaves, I am a descendant of slave owners, but not a vestige of slavery. Even if the current government is somehow a piece of the slavery machinery of yore, the statement that no similar remnant exists in Africa is false. The tribes that imprisoned fellow blacks are still alive and well in Africa. THese tribes must also then be a vestige of slavery. In fact, many of them perpetrate acts of outright genocide on each other today. I would think that they are more than a vestige, but a full blown racist machine. THe only distinction here is who enslaved whom first and upon whom falls the greatest blame. Whatever the proportions, you can’t eliminate Africans. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/67 "2000-02-10T21:14:00Z")
A “tribe” is hardly an institution. It’s also silly for anybody to suggest that African-Americans should first go to Africa to find redress for past ills before going to their own government. As I said before, it is too late for reparations, but it is not too late to acknowledge the injustices perpetrated by our country’s government in years gone by. That doesn’t mean we have to wallow in self-guilt. Most Americans alive today are guiltless in the matter. However, if we are going to take any pride in our nation’s history, we must also bear some of it’s shame. * * * Elmer J. Fudd, Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht. ---
**Author:** ![sqweel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@sqweel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweel)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/68 "2000-02-10T23:32:00Z")
What this discussion seems to be leading to is the need to establish a statute of limitations on historical grievances. We need to recognize that there are practical limits to the principle of inheritance–of rights, claims, guilt, liability. Otherwise we’d be trying to redress events going back thousands of years. Furthermore, we must resist the tendancy to personify large timeless groups like nations or races. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/69 "2000-02-11T01:25:00Z")
tom > [@](#): > > This is an arguable point Well, yeah, that’s my point. I think the argument has merit. > [@](#): > > A) The original intra-African slavery was a much different proposition than the peculiar institution established, here. As a rough analogy, think of the slavery demonstrated in the old movie A Man Named Horse. Damn great movie. At least you got that right 🙂 > [@](#): > > Those African who participated in slaving in the 17th through 19th centuries were all colonized (economically enslaved) by the late 19th century so that they have already suffered the bad karma for their activities while being impoverished to the point that they could make no reparations now, anyway. Following that silly thought,tom, one could say that WE Americans suffered OUR bad karma, and thus paid the bill, by our Civil War. Hello? > [@](#): > > provides a defense that “they didn’t realize what they were doing.” That doesn’t work. . > [@](#): > > There is another aspect to that question that I hope we do not cross over (as we have not yet done). Spending a lot of time worrying about how much guilt various 200-year dead Africans share comes rather close to arguing how much “guilt” the Jews share for the Holocaust because they kept themselves culturally apart from Christian tom, shame on you, Jews never delivered other Jews to the Death Camps, or in ANY WAY participated in the Holocaust. Blacks HELPED subjugate other blacks and PARTICIPATED in the slave trade. JEWS DID NOT PARTICIPATE. * * * You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/70 "2000-02-11T01:27:00Z")
Good point Sqweel. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/71 "2000-02-11T01:49:00Z")
**John John** , the point is that it may be arguable, but it is pointless. Since _no one is on the other side_ would **you** care to provide us with a pro-reparation thesis in order to provide some counterpoint?. Your “shame on you” quote is excessively stupid. I mentioned that obviously incorrect contention for the very fact that there are idiots who have expressed those sentiments. Should we now go into your rants against Hillary and cry “shame on you” when you quote her to make a point? Get a grip. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Ursa\_Major](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a88e57/32.png) [@Ursa\_Major](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ursa_Major)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/72 "2000-02-11T01:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Jews never delivered other Jews to the Death Camps, or in ANY WAY participated in the Holocaust Have you heard of capos, John John? ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/73 "2000-02-11T03:19:00Z")
tom > [@](#): > > Get a grip. I’ve always had one, thankyouverymuch. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/74 "2000-02-11T03:22:00Z")
Can anyone give me some specific information on the U.S. Federal government’s culpability in slavery? It isn’t enough to say that the Feds “condoned” it. The U.S. government was designed to minimize its control over private citizens and state governments. So a real “smoking gun” is needed to counter the following: 1. In 1807 the Federal government banned further importation of slaves. 2. The Southern states seceded in 1861 because it appeared that the balance of power in the Federal government had permanantly shifted away from the slave states. 3. The Federal government, of course, prosecuted the Civil War which, although it wasn’t immediately about slavery, became so after the Emancipation Proclamation issued by the Persident of the United States. 4. The Federal government attempted to secure political power for blacks in the South by imposing the Reconstruction governments. 5. During the Civil Rights Movement, Federal court rulings, presidential orders, the use of U.S. army troops, and the Federal Civil right act of 1964 clearly spelled out which side the U.S. has been on. So unless I’m missing something, how can the U.S., as opposed to various states or individual families, be subject to demands for reparations? ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/75 "2000-02-11T03:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Have you heard of capos, John John" Yes, I have. If I’m not mistaken they are Jews that ONCE THEY WERE IN THE CAMPS collaberated to stay alive. I’m talking about before the act, pre holocaust,which they did not, as in the blacks particiaption in the round up of other blacks for sale INTO slavery. * * * You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/76 "2000-02-11T03:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by tomndebb: > \*\*(A separate category of riots _did_ occur in the South (and West), with small, villages or towns being effectively destroyed or the inhabitants chased out by local whites, jealous of the blacks’ relative prosperity. The movie **Rosewood** portrayed one of these events. (The movie had many more deaths than the original event, but the black citizens were forced to abandon all their property and flee into poverty–and Rosewood was not an isolated event.) > > While lynchings could be a spur-of-the moment event, many of them were planned and advertised, with papers running columns explaining the “need” for the lynchings and railroads actually putting together special trains to carry the crowds to the events. > > Riots were nearly always spontaneous. > > In the cases of both lynchings and riots, it was fairly typical for the police to ignore the proceedings (or, in the case of the northern riots, to disarm any blacks they encountered in the interests of “safety” while allowing the whites to go unchallenged). (In the Detroit riot of 1943, the whites reacted against a black housing project being built near a white neighborhood. They invaded a black neighborhood and killed 25 people, suffering 9 deaths, themselves. The police arrested only black citizens (for defending their own neighborhoods).) > > Throughout the lynchings and riots a common theme was expressed: a black who was considered too successful was a target. In the Springfield, IL riot, the two men who were killed were a barber who had established himself as a solid businessman (defending his shop from being burned) and an elderly, retired gentleman who had been praised in the local papers as a good citizen (dragged from his home and lynched in a schoolyard). > > The fairly clear message throughout the U.S. between 1880 and 1960 was that a black person had no right or business being successful. > \*\* [Here](http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?1d=1471) is the story of yet another white-on-black riot that destroyed virtually the entire black population of the small town of Ocoee, Florida in 1920. Predictably, the white folks of Ocoee would rather not talk about it. The great writer Zora Neale Hurston wrote about it in 1939 for the WPA. There is dispute about the number of people killed (8 to 60), but what is not disputed is that 26 black residences were burned to the ground and nearly 500 blacks were literally chased out of Ocoee. And it was in 1920, three years before Rosewood. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/77 "2000-02-11T03:50:00Z")
Sorry, the above link is incorrect. Here is the correct one: [www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id-1471](http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id-1471) Now you know how I’ve made so many posts: It’s from correcting my mistakes! * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/78 "2000-02-11T03:55:00Z")
DAMN IT!!! [www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=1471](http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=1471) If that doesn’t work, I give up. If it fails, go to [www.orlandoweekly.com/news/index.asp](http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/index.asp) and have it search for Ocoee. Click on the link “Dead wrong” and you’ll see it. I’m getting tired. See y’all later. * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/79 "2000-02-11T03:56:00Z")
SUCCESS!!! * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452/80 "2000-02-12T06:48:00Z")
Elmer said > [@](#): > > A “tribe” is hardly an institution. It’s also silly for anybody to suggest that African-Americans should first go to Africa to find redress for past ills before going to their own government. They shouldn’t, but if the issue comes up, it should be included as comparative negligence would be in a trial. Contribbuting factors are assigned a percentage based on their contribution to the damages. When proving damages, you have to show that you are worse off now than when the act occurred. It seems to me that the slaves were no worse off (accept for the boat ride over.) And I am not sure that their descendants would have been better off staying in Africa. I don’t see any damages, nor do I see a reason to appologize. The whole issue is used to induce guilt and grab a bigger share of the pie. Let it go already. I still wish I could get back some dough from Germany and Lithuania though 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/african-americans-are-owed-no-more-by-the-us/17452.md?page=3)