# Africans discovered America - they both have pyramids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 17, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694 "2003-11-17T14:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/41 "2013-06-12T16:26:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In other words, they were Middle Eastern. They probably didn’t look all that different from the people who live there now. With a strong Libyan presence. The Lybians themselves probably entered North Africa via Sicily ands modern Tunisia. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/42 "2013-06-12T16:36:36Z")
Well, the Malian empire certainly did send out expeditions to investigate the Atlantic Ocean with the intention of crossing it, to see what was on the other side. Reputedly, one such expedition was headed by the current King, though it never returned and no expedition ever returned with news of America. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/43 "2013-06-12T17:33:13Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Well, the Malian empire certainly did send out expeditions to investigate the Atlantic Ocean with the intention of crossing it, to see what was on the other side. Contentious. I wouldn’t use the word _certainly_. The report is third-hand, via a historian recording a reported story Mansa Musa relayed while on Hajj. While it is possible ( though probably not on the grand scale claimed of 3,000 vessels ), for all we know he was telling a tall tale about his predecessor. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/44 "2013-06-12T17:57:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > They’ve since moved on to describing how Africans colonized Mars. :dubious: Well?! Was it the white people who colonized Mars?! Was it?! ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/45 "2013-06-21T17:21:08Z")
Did a quick Google but no joy . Is there any significant history of Sub Saharan Africans having a seagoing, exploration/trading culture ? I’m not making any point but am genuinlly curious . Like I say I did a quick Google, but then again not all data is on the internet, though all too many think that it is. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/46 "2013-06-21T17:30:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Well?! Was it the white people who colonized Mars?! Was it?! Duh. Where do you think the White Martians came from? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/47 "2013-06-21T17:41:24Z")
It hardly matters which group made the first incidental landing in the Americas after their colonization by the people who became the Native Americans. Really the only ‘discoveries of America’ that matter are its original colonization by what became the Native Americans, and its later colonization by Europeans after Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/48 "2013-06-21T17:46:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Duh. Where do you think the White Martians came from? Damn White Martians keeping the Green Man down! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/49 "2013-06-21T18:40:41Z")
Years ago in the early days of the Internet, I knew this guy who seemed fairly level headed and straight forward. Then he suddenly took a left turn and put together a web site claiming that Kings of Mali had colonized North America before the Europeans, and that several major east coast Native American tribes were ruled by them and intermarried with them. Until the white man showed up and deliberately set about to destroy all evidence of this Great Heritage. All in all it isn’t much different from any other group deciding that they’re really descendent of these Great Kings of Old and thus, more worthy of whatever than they really are. Heck, per-contact Central America was thick with groups trying to claim descent from the Olmecs and other great historical powers. It is a basic part of Human Nature. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/50 "2013-06-21T19:03:23Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Did a quick Google but no joy . > > Is there any significant history of Sub Saharan Africans having a seagoing, exploration/trading culture ? > > I’m not making any point but am genuinlly curious . > > Like I say I did a quick Google, but then again not all data is on the internet, though all too many think that it is. Due to the regularity of the seasonal monsoon winds, anyone able to construct a simple [dhow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhow) could travel [all the coasts of the Indian Ocean](http://dirigoapworld.wikispaces.com/file/view/IndianOceanMaritimeRoutes.gif/190543034/IndianOceanMaritimeRoutes.gif) from the eastern coast of Africa to the Island of Java. This was a [massively important](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6XtBLDmPA0) [trade route](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_trade) carrying religion (Islam to Indonesia/East Africa, [Hinduism to Cambodia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wat), etc), people ([Malagasy to Madagascar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_people), [Tamils to Malaysia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Malaysians), etc), and culture/technology (spread of writing, navigation, etc). Basically anyone along this route had a seagoing, exploration/trading culture. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/51 "2013-06-21T19:09:33Z")
If we go for the pre Clovis theory then the Americas were discovered by people from what is now France long before anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/52 "2013-06-21T20:59:04Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Due to the regularity of the seasonal monsoon winds, anyone able to construct a simple [dhow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhow) could travel [all the coasts of the Indian Ocean](http://dirigoapworld.wikispaces.com/file/view/IndianOceanMaritimeRoutes.gif/190543034/IndianOceanMaritimeRoutes.gif) from the eastern coast of Africa to the Island of Java. > > This was a [massively important](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6XtBLDmPA0) [trade route](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_trade) carrying religion (Islam to Indonesia/East Africa, [Hinduism to Cambodia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wat), etc), people ([Malagasy to Madagascar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_people), [Tamils to Malaysia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Malaysians), etc), and culture/technology (spread of writing, navigation, etc). > > Basically anyone along this route had a seagoing, exploration/trading culture. Actually sailed on one for a short trip out of Mombasa, though he was using an engine. I asked how could he tack using the rig, but they can’t, so can’t go to windward,(Under sail), plus having no keel can’t make life any easier ! Thanks for the links, I genuinely find this an interesting subject. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/53 "2013-06-21T22:17:16Z")
Modern dhows have no keel but it’s quite possible or even probable that ancient ones did. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/54 "2013-06-22T00:00:03Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Is there any significant history of Sub Saharan Africans having a seagoing, exploration/trading culture ? > [@orcenio](#): > > Due to the regularity of the seasonal monsoon winds, anyone able to construct a simple [dhow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhow) could travel [all the coasts of the Indian Ocean](http://dirigoapworld.wikispaces.com/file/view/IndianOceanMaritimeRoutes.gif/190543034/IndianOceanMaritimeRoutes.gif) from the eastern coast of Africa to the Island of Java. > > Basically anyone along this route had a seagoing, exploration/trading culture. Just to add some specificity to **orcenio** ’s excellent answer, the city-states and petty states of the [Swahili Coast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_Coast), the [Somali coast](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarapion) and further north states like [Aksum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum#Foreign_relations.2C_trade_and_economy) in particular were substantial trade entrepots from at least the 1rst century. So coastal sub-Saharan East Africa from the Sahara south to about modern Sofala in Mozambique had a lot of maritime ties to the Indian Ocean trade system from classical times. West Africa saw far, far less naval activity pre-European penetration. Overland trans-Saharan trade routes here were preferred at least partly due to a dearth of good harbors and unfavorable winds and currents. Central Africa was further cut off from contact by the vast Congo Basin, which was actually rather more impenetrable ( in terms of economically feasible trade ) than the Sahara. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/55 "2013-06-22T01:18:39Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > If we go for the pre Clovis theory then the Americas were discovered by people from what is now France long before anyone else. I dunno. Even if the rather weak claims for the Solutrean hypothesis were proven, that would simply mean that some rather small number of Europeans landed on and colonized a small section of North America long after the Americas had already been populated by migrations from Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/56 "2013-06-22T15:37:56Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Actually sailed on one for a short trip out of Mombasa, though he was using an engine. > > I asked how could he tack using the rig, but they can’t, so can’t go to windward,(Under sail), plus having no keel can’t make life any easier ! > > Thanks for the links, I genuinely find this an interesting subject. They look like they can tack somewhat but without a center board that would brutal. I don’t get the original claim. Is it being suggested that Africans populated South America first or beat the Europeans and the pyramids are proof of that or both? ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/57 "2013-06-22T16:21:42Z")
Several older posts comment on the lack of stelae in New World sites. They are indeed present and I’ve had the privilege of seeing them in great number in Chichen Itza and a few in Coba. Where is the writing? It’s there, but it isn’t Egyptian writing. Like Egyptian writing it appears more like art than letters. Pictographs. ---
**Author:** ![Among\_Liberals](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Among\_Liberals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Among_Liberals)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/58 "2013-06-23T01:44:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t get the original claim. Is it being suggested that Africans populated South America first This doesn’t seem like it would be too hard to investigate. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/59 "2013-06-23T03:03:01Z")
> [@Among\_Liberals](#): > > This doesn’t seem like it would be too hard to investigate. In a round about way, it has already been investigated and the answer is a pretty resounding “no,” it never happened. There have been enough DNA tests of various populations over the years to be able to track populations around the world. Africans and pre-Columbian Americans are the most distant populations. All the connections between New World and Old World populations run through Northeast Asia. This does not meant that no African could possibly have sailed to the Americas, (or that the European/Solutrean hypothesis could never have occurred), but it does indicate that any such contact was small, localized, and fleeting and that Africans and Europeans have never actually colonized the Americas. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694/60 "2013-06-23T03:08:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > … Africans and Europeans have never actually colonized the Americas. I’m fairly sure that European \*have \*colonised the Americas. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africans-discovered-america-they-both-have-pyramids/213694.md?page=4)