# Africa's resources & the rise of a new Cold War **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786 "2011-04-26T17:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/21 "2011-04-27T10:44:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You can’t underestimate.. Meant “overstate”. Don’t misunderestimate me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/22 "2011-04-27T11:33:56Z")
Dealing with China may well be a better deal for _Africans_, and I don’t begrudge them if it is, but I read the OP as suggesting that it was “unfortunate” _for the West_, regrettable that we didn’t have the wisdom to establish more mutually-beneficial relationships in Africa when we had the chance. ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/23 "2011-04-27T12:00:04Z")
I am pleasantly surprised at the increased level of interest in Africa being shown by the SDMB in the past few months. Have I missed something in the news ? There is a significant push by the Chinese here in Angola, which is not surprising given their big need for oil. They spent around USD 400 million to renovate the Benguela Railway and they are planning to build a hotel and office tower. I also see many of them working in the street renovations projects. Of late, there has been a bit of resentment growing over their presence and large numbers - around 70,000 Chinese workers at last count - which has [provoked a few attacks](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704388504575418990791137242.html)by Angolans who desire work that seems to be going to the Chinese workers. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/24 "2011-04-27T13:09:23Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I read the OP as suggesting that it was “unfortunate” _for the West_ Speaking as an African, the West can go fuck itself. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/25 "2011-04-27T13:21:44Z")
Well, that’s an understandable attitude for an African to have, though an odd one for a participant on this board. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/26 "2011-04-27T13:58:16Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Well, that’s an understandable attitude for an African to have, though an odd one for a participant on this board. Why? This Board is \*full \*of people who are pretty representative of all that was wrong with the US at the time, _and continues to be so_. Coming here daily affirms my stance, rather than lessening it. Start a Pit thread and I’ll say more. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/27 "2011-04-27T14:10:08Z")
😕 If you’re saying that you hate Americans _particularly as represented here_, you should start your own Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/28 "2011-04-27T15:36:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Admittedly, at least the Chinese are paying for the stuff they mine and extract-while GB, France, Belgium just took the stuff and gave nothing back. How is that any different from what Western countries are themselves doing as of today? Moreover, if colonialism was simply glorified looting, how come maintaining colonial Empires actually cost more than the profits they turned in? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/29 "2011-04-27T15:44:11Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > 😕 If you’re saying that you hate Americans _particularly as represented here_, you should start your own Pit thread. No, I’m saying _here is nothing special_ in terms of the quality of Americans it presents. Which was an answer to your implied question as to my meaning, and doesn’t really warrant the Pit. I _don_\*'t\* hate Americans in general, I just don’t think they’re anything to emulate in behaviour and by this time have no business at all telling people anything about how to run their countries or who they can and can’t have partnerships with. Hell, given the representative sample of Americans I encounter on the SD, I don’t think a lot of you should even be allowed to have an opinion. And so-called"Free Speech" can go fuck itself too, in case you’re wondering. I just hinted at the Pit if you wanted more specifics beyond the scope of GD, such as naming names etc. As far as I see it, Americans _in general_ have no leg to stand on in criticising, with regards to China’s influence in Africa. Only really liberal Americans voiced much concern at the time of the original Cold war, and it was the growth of left-liberalism as a political force, with the Civil Rights, Feminist and Anti-Vietnam movements, and the fallout from Watergate, that changed all that by the 80s. Which is why I have no time for anyone who still is a Republican, post-Reagan. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/30 "2011-04-27T16:05:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Hell, given the representative sample of Americans I encounter on the SD, I don’t think a lot of you should even be allowed to have an opinion. Most of the people I interact with on the Dope can rationally discuss events and arguments, something which you are simply not doing. > [@](#): > > And so-called"Free Speech" can go fuck itself too, in case you’re wondering. What on earth is the problem with free speech? What do you suggest instead? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/31 "2011-04-27T16:13:25Z")
They are not building car factories in Africa, true. But what they are doing is taking the industries that China has graduated out of (which are the industries that made China rich) and phasing them into Africa. I’m talking specifically about leatherwork and other low-skill low-tech manufacturing. China’s workforce is to the point where it’s not economical to employ them in these industries, so China is shifting them to Africa where they can still make some residual income. Remember that Africans are conscious actors in this. They are pretty aware of what is going on, and have plenty of opinions. I’ve heard dirt-poor farmers sound exactly like they are channeling my racist Grandpa when they mutter about cheap Chinese goods. Chinese goods replacing locally crafted goods is a problem, but I think it’s one inspiring African countries to start their own manufacturing to compete. Environment and workforce safety are a problem, and I don’t see an easy solution for that. > [@ralph124c](#): > > The jury is still out, but I don’t see the Chinese as all that interested in long-term investments in Africa. I see them building railroads, mines, fisheries, etc…all to facilitate the extraction of raw materials..which will go to China , and return as finished goods. The major Chinese investments in Cameroon were a series of hydro-electric dams that produced the electricity for the entire country, and several staffed hospitals. There were certainly problems- the hospital staff in my village rather inconveniently only really spoke Chinese, for example. But it does a lot for a country to have electricity. The benefits go beyond household use…it allows for water sanitation equipment and industrial activities. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/32 "2011-04-27T16:43:18Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Most of the people I interact with on the Dope can rationally discuss events and arguments, something which you are simply not doing. Take it to the Pit. All I’m doing is explaining why, in this context, America doesn’t really have any standing to criticise China’s involvement. If you can point out where the irrational bit is, go ahead. > [@](#): > > What on earth is the problem with free speech? What do you suggest instead? Regulated speech. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/33 "2011-04-27T16:52:40Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > How is that any different from what Western countries are themselves doing as of today? Moreover, if colonialism was simply glorified looting, how come maintaining colonial Empires actually cost more than the profits they turned in? I think the example that best illustrates my point would be the Belgian Congo. It was a huge area, and rich with gold, cobalt, uranium, copper, etc. The Belgian owners built cities, railroads, etc., and staffed the mining industry with belgians. They built a few schools and hospitals, but these were mainly to serve the mine workers. Belgium extracted billions $ in metals and ores, and most of the profits went to Belgian shareholders. The cost of mainatining troops in the colony was billed to the government-so that (in effect) the local people paid for thier own rape! ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/34 "2011-04-27T17:12:28Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think the example that best illustrates my point would be the Belgian Congo. > It was a huge area, and rich with gold, cobalt, uranium, copper, etc. The Belgian owners built cities, railroads, etc., and staffed the mining industry with belgians. They built a few schools and hospitals, but these were mainly to serve the mine workers. Belgium extracted billions $ in metals and ores, and most of the profits went to Belgian shareholders. The cost of mainatining troops in the colony was billed to the government-so that (in effect) the local people paid for thier own rape! But Belgian colonialism, at least the Leon period, completely stands out of the usual colonial M.O. It wasnt a nation exploiting another country’s ressources, it was a the private owner of a country ransacking it before control was yanked away from him. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/35 "2011-04-27T17:25:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Take it to the Pit. I’m not interested in pitting anyone. I’m interested in a rational, informed discussion, which is what this was, not name-calling. > [@](#): > > All I’m doing is explaining why, in this context, America doesn’t really have any standing to criticise China’s involvement. If you can point out where the irrational bit is, go ahead. You weren’t just talking about america though; you were relating it to posters here and points made in this thread. It’s irrational to dismiss an argument because of the nationality of the person delivering it, or to pre-judge someone based on nationality. > [@](#): > > Regulated speech. What does that mean? Regulated by who? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/36 "2011-04-27T17:35:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m not interested in pitting anyone. I’m interested in a rational, informed discussion, which is what this was, not name-calling. It’s not name-calling to point out the hypocrisy of any imagined concerns America might have about a Chinese presence in Africa. It directly addresses the OP. > [@](#): > > You weren’t just talking about america though; you were relating it to posters here and points made in this thread. _I wasn’t the one who brought up the Dope_. Go call \*\*spark240 \*\*irrational if that’s your beef. > [@](#): > > It’s irrational to dismiss an argument because of the nationality of the person delivering it, or to pre-judge someone based on nationality. It’s _not_ irrational to dismiss a group’s statements on behaviour _because of recurrent past behaviour_ by that group, as a group. Don’t want to be tarred with the “American” brush? Then don’t, like the OP, make statements about America’s interests and the unfortunate nature of China’s involvement versus America involvement. > [@](#): > > What does that mean? Regulated by who? The Government, subject to my agreeing with the speech it chooses to censor. ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/37 "2011-04-27T17:37:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > They are not building car factories in Africa, true. . Well, [that is not entirely true.](http://angolarising.blogspot.com/2010/03/angola-new-detroit.html) The majority of the autos and motorcycles will be exported to Namibia and South Africa, since not many Angolans can afford one. China and other countries ( the US included ) have a great deal of interest in Angola and this looks to continue. Many of the Angolans I work with are still a bit wary of all this attention and are concerned that the government is getting a little too close for comfort. They came out of the last Cold War in pretty bad shape and do not want to see this happen again. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/38 "2011-04-27T17:47:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Pushing” abortion and homosexuality? Remember that he’s speaking of Africa, where (in many places) “pushing homosexuality” means having the cheek to suggest that homosexuals may not actually deserve to be summarily julienned with machetes. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/39 "2011-04-27T19:19:24Z")
The article linked to in the OP was ridiculous, but the issue it raises is an interesting one. What is China’s comparitive advantage in Africa? If Africa’s natural resources can be exploited, why aren’t africans exploiting them right now? If all they need is a capital and know how why aren’t western corporations doing it? Westerners like money as much as Chinese people do, if there is so much to be made in Africa how come people aren’t lining up to make it? I hope I am wrong because Africa is a place that needs productive investments and international exploitation, but this is just part of an Austro-chinese business cycle and the chinese are probably going to lose a lot of money there. The political climate in most parts of Africa is not conducive to business and the Ferengi could not make money there. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786/40 "2011-04-27T21:30:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, but when the African country they did have good relationships with was Apartheid South Africa, it wasn’t so good for actual Africans. Especially not when they shared nuclear tech. Israel has had relations with varying African countries since her Independence. As far as South Africa goes, their relations crumbled because Israel was a virulent critic of the regime. I think it’s in Israel’s best interest to press for a new friendship. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Speaking as an African, the West can go fuck itself. As in like the place that’s 3x the size of America? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/africas-resources-the-rise-of-a-new-cold-war/579786.md?page=3)