# Afrocentrism and Making Shit Up **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783 "2016-03-12T19:41:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/1 "2016-03-12T19:41:38Z")
We were talking about St Patrick’s Day at work and a couple of us mentioned that we don’t celebrate it. I gave my usual snobbish, lofty, Lace-Curtain Irish explanation that it is because it celebrates the worst Pig-Shit Irish stereotypes, but I was surprised by the reason given by a black woman, who said that she used to celebrate it until she heard the origin of the term, “paddy wagon.” According to her, the South’s slave patrols were recruited from the Irish population because they were the only white people willing to touch the beat-up, bloody escaped slaves. They then brought them back to their plantations in wagons called “paddy wagons” because they were driven by the Irish patrollers, called “paddy rollers” because they were Irish. :dubious: I tried to explain that the [slave patrols](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol) were, by law, made up of all of the white males, not just the Irish; that if there were many Irish is was because of Scots-Irish immigration, not immigration from Eire; that the Scots-Irish don’t count because they weren’t really Irish and, besides, they were Protestants (there are no rules against trolling IRL! 😉 ); that beating up on black folk was a Southern white birthright, enjoyable by all; paddy wagons were likely named for their cargo of drunken Irish brawlers; and that the attitude was that the uppity slaves shouldn’t get to ride in the “lap of luxury,” but should walk, dammit. She said she will bring in the book where she read about this. I look forward to reading it. But what struck me is how casually she explained to a person of Irish ancestry why she hates all the Irish, as if it were the most natural thing in the world to paint us all with this pseudo-historical calumny. It reminded me of listening to a white-supremacist, but without the self-awareness, and the more I read about Afrocentrism the more I see some people playing a zero-sum game, in which blacks lift themselves by pushing down whites, to the point of making shit up. I wish people didn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/2 "2016-03-12T19:53:09Z")
I predict this will not go well. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/3 "2016-03-12T20:03:25Z")
[Wiki goes into some detail.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_van) No slave wagons mentioned. It would be simple enough if one of the dopers with date phrase searching access of old news media could see how early the phrase is used. If nothing exists before the early 1900’s then slave gathering use seems unlikely. > [@](#): > > Paddy Wagon > > The precise origin of the term is uncertain and disputed, though its use dates back to the 1800s.[2] “Paddy” however is a slang term for an Irish person used in the English speaking world, but it is now in decline as it is considered an improper term. (Irish themselves may still use it in an affectionate way but caution should be exercised.) > > There are at least three theories as how the term originated. > > The most prevalent theory in the United States is based on the term “Paddy” a common Irish shortening of Padraig, (Patrick in English), which was most often used as an ethnic slur to refer to Irish people.[3] Irishmen made up a large percentage of the officers of early police forces in many American cities. Thus, this theory suggests that the concentration of Irish in the police forces led to the term “paddy wagon” being used to describe the vehicles driven by police. > > An alternative theory is similarly based on the term “Paddy” but states that the term arose due to the allegedly high crime level among Irish immigrants.[4] > The most common understanding of the term “Paddy Wagon” in the United Kingdom also stems from the belief that the most common occupants of the vans were Irish. This comes from several perspectives: a) prejudice by English people that the Irish immigrants were largely common criminals, b) from the legendary stories of their fighting spirit and the fact that when arrested they were less likely to “go quietly” than other nationalities, requiring the use of the van rather than a police car, and c) that the Irish liked to drink so much that drunken brawling would often ensue and thus the police van would be called to take them away into custody. > > Yet another theory holds that “paddy wagon” was originally “patty wagon,” a nickname for “patrol wagon.” In the same manner that police cars are called patrol cars today, there were no cars when the term “patrol wagon” was first used, explaining why people don’t say “paddy car” for patrol car.[5] > > Most of the police vans in the UK have caged sections to keep the occupants apart from each other. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/4 "2016-03-12T20:06:47Z")
Disliking something current because of what it might have meant two centuries ago is fundamentally stupid… ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/5 "2016-03-12T20:09:43Z")
Here’s where her confusion might be coming from. [Slave patrols wiki -](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol) > [@](#): > > Slave patrols (called patrollers, patterrollers, pattyrollers or paddy rollers by the slaves) were organized groups of white men who monitored and enforced discipline upon black slaves in the antebellum U.S. southern states. Slave patrols’ function was to police slaves, especially runaways and defiant slaves. They also formed river patrols to prevent escape by boat. Slave patrols were first established in South Carolina in 1704, and the idea spread throughout the colonies. [More on “pattyrollers” specifically](https://confederateshop.com/my-two-cents/essays/rex-miller/pattyrollers/) > [@](#): > > According to the long out of print text, Old Massa’s People, by Orland Kay Armstrong, first published in 1931, there were no State laws governing the return of runaway slaves prior to the mass murders performed by Nat Turner in February of 1831. That Nat Turner and his band butchered babies, children, women, non slave holding black and white men as well as slaves means little today, but at the time, the nation was aghast with the horror of it all. He was for all practical purposes a mass murderer of his day and folk were rightfully concerned. So concerned, in fact, that states began to pass laws restricting the travel of slaves. To quote from Old Massa’s People, “The plantation was made the unit of control, with each master responsible for the whereabouts of his servants. What they did on his acres was his business, but what they did away from the farm was the concern of the state. Counties were authorized to appoint and hire “patrollers” to see to it that any servant leaving his master’s domain did so with written consent. These patrollers promptly became “pattyrollers” to the slaves the whole south over.” > > ``` > By and large, pattyrollers were hardscrabble subsistence farmers with few acres whose quality of life was much inferior to the slaves who dwelled upon the large estate just across the fence-line. In many instances these folk were simply looked upon as white trash. So, when the opportunity presented itself for them to make themselves appear superior to the slave as well as ingratiate themselves to the large land owners, they jumped at the opportunity. And like any small time power-wanna-be given official license, most were cruel, abusive and crude. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/6 "2016-03-12T20:10:06Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Scots-Irish immigration, not immigration from Eire Where do you think they came from? Éire is the whole island, indisputably so at the time. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/7 "2016-03-12T20:26:33Z")
and … here we go re where she might have got it. [From Slave Patrols To Paddy Wagons](http://moorishamericannews.com/from-slave-patrols-to-paddy-wagons) > [@](#): > > This article is dedicated to the memory of Freddie Gray – another young man whose life was cut short while in the custody of those who were sworn to protect and serve. > > This country has once again been riveted by news of death and suspected police brutality. New reports of such events seem to now appear every month. It causes one to ask the question: What is the deeper issue at hand? > > Police brutality is not a new thing and is definitely not unknown to those of us who live in lower-income neighborhoods (where cases of police brutality is most frequent). However, what is not known to the masses is the fact that many origins of modern police tactics, in the United States, come from what was known as the Slave Patrol. In fact, the institution of slavery and the control of slaves were 2 of the most formidable aspects of U.S. History which shaped early policing. Slave patrols and Night Watches, which later became your modern-day police departments, were both created to control the behavior of those who were labeled negro, black and colored. > > Slave patrols were organized groups of men (of European descent) who enforced “discipline” upon slaves in the South. Their function was to police slaves, particularly, defiant slaves. Slave patrols were called “patrollers,” “patty rollers,” or “paddy rollers” by the slaves (in fact, the term “rollers” is still used by some when describing the police). These paddy rollers traveled in what became known as a “paddy wagon” (a term used today for a police van – like the one Freddie Gray was confined in). They were first established in South Carolina in 1704, and spread throughout the colonies. In a 2006 article, found in the Journal of Criminal Education, entitled Ignoring the Past: Coverage of Slavery and Slave Patrols in Criminal Justice Texts, it stated: ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/8 "2016-03-12T20:37:49Z")
The phrases are so close you can almost see how this happened where someone writing about “paddy rollers” goes right to thinking “paddy wagons” cause … well … one naturally had to come from the other. The names are even the same for goodness sake! “Paddy Rollers” used “Paddy Wagons” … they had to! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/9 "2016-03-12T21:07:45Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Where do you think they came from? > Éire is the whole island, indisputably so at the time. Note that I was trolling her with intra-Irish bullshit at this point. Better that than saying, “Where did you get this shit?” 😉 **astro** , I read your link and thought that his > [@](#): > > In fact, the institution of slavery and the control of slaves were 2 of the most formidable aspects of U.S. History which shaped early policing. Slave patrols and Night Watches, which later became your modern-day police departments, were both created to control the behavior of those who were labeled negro, black and colored. was a stretch which discounted how in cities, where police departments were first founded, nearly all of the miscreants were white. More made-up history intended to support a view that the primary purpose of white society was to suppress blacks. While that may have been partly true in slaveholding states, up north they had other people to oppress. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/10 "2016-03-12T21:20:35Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Note that I was trolling her with intra-Irish bullshit at this point. Better that than saying, “Where did you get this shit?” 😉 > > **astro** , I read your link and thought that his was a stretch which discounted how in cities, where police departments were first founded, nearly all of the miscreants were white. More made-up history intended to support a view that the primary purpose of white society was to suppress blacks. While that may have been partly true in slaveholding states, up north they had other people to oppress. 😉 People will view history through their own lens. You can beat her over the head for relying on some blogger’s etymological history error, but I think you might have a better result walking her though how he made his error which is actually kind of interesting. Default textbook white American history also has it’s fair share of made up shit so judging black people for doing, or tryin to do, the same thing is chancy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/11 "2016-03-12T21:37:12Z")
Indeed, and I do not wish to ignore the very real oppression of blacks in this country, but the counter to Whitey’s made-up history is not making up history of your own, nor is it quoting feel-good made-up history because it supports your own prejudices. Cleopatra probably did not have features of a Sub-Saharan African, Aristotle would have been hard-pressed to steal Africa/Egyptian philosophy books from a library founded 25 years after he died, and the nobility of Western Europe [was not of recent African ancestry.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=544874) ---
**Author:** ![Potestas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/50afbb/32.png) [@Potestas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potestas)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/12 "2016-03-13T00:23:09Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Disliking something current because of what it might have meant two centuries ago is fundamentally stupid… This ^^ Tell that old biddy to grow up already and stop using ancient history as an excuse to play the victim card. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/13 "2016-03-13T02:26:32Z")
“Ancient?” Not so very! There are plenty of people alive today who suffered under Jim Crow segregation. Racism is less today than in the past, but it hasn’t gone away. That said, yeah, being mad at the Irish because they participated in slave patrols is kinda like being mad at the Quakers because of Richard Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Potestas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/50afbb/32.png) [@Potestas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potestas)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/14 "2016-03-13T02:28:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > “Ancient?” Not so very! > > There are plenty of people alive today who suffered under Jim Crow segregation. Racism is less today than in the past, but it hasn’t gone away. > > That said, yeah, being mad at the Irish because they participated in slave patrols is kinda like being mad at the Quakers because of Richard Nixon. Still Jim Crow doesn’t exist today, people should move on and get with the times. The longer they remain in the past the longer they will put forward a mentality of victimization which only drags the country down with them. Racism will never go away, there will always be a few who remain stuck in those ways. So rather than looking for racism and other bogeymen around every corner we should acknowledge the tremendous gains we have made and keep our focus on that rather than giving people excuses to be victims so they can get free sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/15 "2016-03-13T03:01:43Z")
You people are ignoring how she, while recounting her bogus history, came right out and expressed her racist hate of me, personally, for the actions of my distant relatives! It’s almost as if you think I’m incapable of being offen…d…ed. Okay, you got me there. I really did just think it was funny and ironic. But some people are more sensitive than I, and she should watch it, especially when she brags about having nothing white in her house except the toilet. I mean, some people have black toilets, and what would she think of that? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/16 "2016-03-13T03:06:33Z")
> [@Potestas](#): > > Still Jim Crow doesn’t exist today . . . Voter ID laws, and redistricting laws (legalized again now that the Supreme Court took away any enforcement from the Voting Rights Act) still exist. There are a few other remnants. ---
**Author:** ![Potestas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/50afbb/32.png) [@Potestas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potestas)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/17 "2016-03-13T03:42:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Voter ID laws, and redistricting laws (legalized again now that the Supreme Court took away any enforcement from the Voting Rights Act) still exist. There are a few other remnants. Redistricting is constitutional Voter ID laws are simple, go get off your lazy behind and get anID. Not hard to do. But then again there are some who feel so self entitled that they don’t need an ID to go vote. Only citizens should be voting, and voter ID laws ensure it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/18 "2016-03-13T04:12:46Z")
> [@Potestas](#): > > Redistricting is constitutional . . . Not always: the Supreme Court, and the appeals courts, have struck down many redistricting plans. > [@](#): > > Voter ID laws are simple, go get off your lazy behind and get anID. Not hard to do. . . . Actually, they’ve deliberately made it hard to do, and that’s the basis of a lot of bitterness around here. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/19 "2016-03-13T04:17:26Z")
> [@Potestas](#): > > Redistricting is constitutional > > Voter ID laws are simple, go get off your lazy behind and get anID. Not hard to do. But then again there are some who feel so self entitled that they don’t need an ID to go vote. Only citizens should be voting, and voter ID laws ensure it. So you’re saying you don’t know what a poll tax is. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783/20 "2016-03-13T12:39:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > “Ancient?” Not so very! > > There are plenty of people alive today who suffered under Jim Crow segregation. Racism is less today than in the past, but it hasn’t gone away. > > That said, yeah, being mad at the Irish\* because they participated in slave patrols is kinda like being mad at the Quakers because of Richard Nixon\*. …which is why it was called “ancient”. I believe that the topic referenced was not Jim Crow laws. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afrocentrism-and-making-shit-up/748783.md?page=2)