# "AFTER PARTY" CA alcohol laws **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 22, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704 "2009-10-22T03:30:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/21 "2009-10-22T21:39:06Z")
Wait. Why is this any different than eBay offerings of “a hat with group X’s logo + 1 ticket (face value $75) for the show” being sold for $200, this combination being used to defeat scalping laws? The eBayer says I’m not charging $200 for a $75 ticket (scalping); I’m offering a package deal. You’re paying a lot of money for a collectors item hat; the ticket is a throw-in. If this evades scalping laws, then the selling a wrist bracelet for $X entitling entry to a facility with complementary food + drink should certainly be legal too. At least I’d have my lawyer pitch that analogy. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/22 "2009-10-22T21:41:01Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Edit to last post: You need the permit for an event where alcohol is **served or sold**. Very important distinction that I completely failed to point up in my first post. Really? If you child was confirmed/graduated and you threw a celebration party with booze you’d need a permit? That’s incredible. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/23 "2009-10-22T21:58:14Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Why is this any different than eBay offerings of “a hat with group X’s logo + 1 ticket (face value $75) for the show” being sold for $200, this combination being used to defeat scalping laws? Because alcohol laws are dramatically different than scalping laws. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/24 "2009-10-22T22:27:04Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Really? If you child was confirmed/graduated and you threw a celebration party with booze you’d need a permit? That’s incredible. If its held in a private dwelling, I dont think that a permit enters into the picture… ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/25 "2009-10-22T22:40:18Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > If its held in a private dwelling, I dont think that a permit enters into the picture… Well this is definitely a commercial occupancy ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/26 "2009-10-22T22:43:43Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Really? If you child was confirmed/graduated and you threw a celebration party with booze you’d need a permit? That’s incredible. If the booze was being sold to the partiers, apparently. I’m digging around, though, because I’m sure I saw an exception for private residences and religious celebrations… one monent please… okay, here’s a link to the [actual application form](http://www.agco.on.ca/pdf/forms/1575B.e.pdf) (PDF), which includes instructions. Ah, here we are: > [@](#): > > A permit is needed any time liquor is offered for sale or served anywhere other than in a licensed establishment or a private place. A private place is an indoor area usually not open to the public and not open to the public during the event; for example, a residence or private office. So house parties don’t need permits, if you aren’t selling tickets or letting strangers walk in off the street or advertising them to the public, and are just inviting people, but if it’s taking place in a venue that is rented for the purpose, you need a permit. I think. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/27 "2009-10-22T22:45:40Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So it’s an open bar? How much does a ticket cost? Free liquor all night long could run into some serious money. All I know is, its alot cheaper for the ladies. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/28 "2009-10-22T22:50:59Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Really? If you child was confirmed/graduated and you threw a celebration party with booze you’d need a permit? That’s incredible. No. Having lived in the same jurisdiction as **Sunspace** (Ontario) and having worked in a beer store there, I’m familiar with the laws and with the permits he’s talking about. The laws are certainly not as draconian as you think. A special occasion permit is not needed for a party in a private dwelling. Generally, such a permit is also not needed on premises that are already licensed–for example, a private room of a restaurant or banquet hall. Throw a party at home or in the party room of your local pub, and have fun without worrying. Where the permit is needed is for areas that are not typically or usually licensed: a public park, an unlicensed hall that can be rented out, and so on. A softball tournament might get a permit for its beer tent next to the ball diamond in a public park, a family reunion dinner in a church hall would require a permit if it was to have a bar, and even a high school reunion/homecoming might seek a permit to serve alcohol at their dance in the school gym. The permits are usually granted only for a set period of time–say, one to three days, which dates will always be specified–and service is only allowed between certain hours that are specified on the permit. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/29 "2009-10-22T22:51:02Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > If the booze was being sold to the partiers, apparently. I’m digging around, though, because I’m sure I saw an exception for private residences and religious celebrations… one monent please… okay, here’s a link to the [actual application form](http://www.agco.on.ca/pdf/forms/1575B.e.pdf) (PDF), which includes instructions. Ah, here we are: So house parties don’t need permits, if you aren’t selling tickets or letting strangers walk in off the street or advertising them to the public, and are just inviting people, but if it’s taking place in a venue that is rented for the purpose, you need a permit. I think. This is how I understand the law as well—If you rent out a public venue, even for a private gathering, a permit is needed to be legal. (obviously you dont need a permit to have friends over to your home for a birthday party) There is no doubt that the situation the OP describes is against the law, probably in several different ways… ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/30 "2009-10-23T00:01:55Z")
Trying to stretch to equate this for-profit business with an actual private party just isn’t going to fly in the legal system. People do not sell tickets for their private celebrations to total strangers. Even true private parties among friends and family, such as a wedding reception in a rented hall, require a permit if there is a cash bar. Since he is the landlord, either through owning the building or holding the lease, I think this fellow may be facing legal problems beyond those the guy who is just an employee selling the tickets will face. A lot will depend on the particular prosecutor and or judge, but phrases like ignorance of the law is not a defense, knowingly providing space for an illegal enterprise, conspiracy, ongoing criminal enterprise, tax evasion, etc. might help convince him that he really really needs to see a lawyer now. His insurance company will not be on his side if someone should get injured or killed either on his property or after having been served alcohol there; expect them to work with the prosection. He should also give some serious thought to what is going to happen when / if he tells his renters the party is over. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/31 "2009-10-23T07:47:59Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > (obviously you dont need a permit to have friends over to your home for a birthday party) But … if you _charge money_ for the drinks at your party (or some dodge like asking for ‘donations’ for the drinks), then you DO need a permit. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/32 "2009-10-23T15:06:31Z")
I’d love to see how this turns out. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/33 "2009-10-23T15:23:16Z")
On further thought, I wonder whether the OP boils down to, “Is the venue owner required to verify that renters have all their proper permits and insurance in hand?” or can they just take the rental money? Does this impact on the venue owner’s own building insurance, for example? Does the venue rental agreement set out maximum numberrs of people allowed in the building and say things like, “I, the renter, acknowledge that I will obtain all necessary permits for my intended use”? The alcohol permit issues seem superficially to be the venue renter’s (party organizer’s) problem, not the venue owner’s. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/34 "2009-10-23T16:09:15Z")
In my examples, the host was responsible for getting ABC and other permits, not the venue. However, there are potential issues, including, without limitation, the following (off the top of my head and based upon the input in this thread): 1. Landlord-tenant issues, depending on the relationships involved 2. Civil and criminal issues including, without limitation, conspiracy and/or aiding & abetting illegal conduct 3. Insurance limitations, including, without limitation, policy restrictions on certain land uses, occupancy limits, criminal activity, and whatever else one might find in an insurance policy to permit the carrier to deny a claim after some drunk kid was over-served at one of these events and breaks his neck slipping in a pool of vomit in the bathroom. 4. I don’t know what the fire marshal would have to say about use and occupancy limits, especially if the place caught fire with a pile of drunks trying to escape. Are there appropriate exits, fire extinguishers, etc. for a place like this? 5. I don’t know what the police would say about appropriate levels of security, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/35 "2009-10-23T16:19:21Z")
If something goes wrong, the plaintiff will most likely cast the widest legal net possible, likely naming everyone possible, especially the venue guy, in any legal action, even if the venue guy may ultimately have some defense. So, it behooves the venue guy to get his ducks in a row now. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/36 "2009-10-23T16:25:49Z")
… and don’t be surprised when the host turns and points the finger at the venue guy when the shit hits the fan. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704/37 "2009-10-23T20:12:14Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > … and don’t be surprised when the host turns and points the finger at the venue guy when the shit hits the fan. This is my big concern. Both of them standing there pointing at each other or the party host doing his impression of clueless party guest, or better yet claiming my friend is the actual boss and that the party host was sent out by my friend to sell the wristbands. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-party-ca-alcohol-laws/514704.md?page=1)