# After Tsarnaev is in the ground, should America reconsider its capital punishment policy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 19, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052 "2014-03-19T01:52:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/121 "2014-03-21T00:42:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course, abolish the death penalty, and then you’re still left with those same innocent people imprisoned. Does “the fact that innocent people spent even a single day in life imprisonment” mean that that system has failed as well? You misquoted me. I said death row, which exposes them to the very real possibility of execution, not to mention the stress that entails year after year. Even that is morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/122 "2014-03-21T01:14:35Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Yes, but the fact that the victim is still alive means that it is possible for the rest of their life to be salvaged if they are found innocent, as several people on death row\*\* have been.\*\* Which is irrelevant, since we were talking about people on death row found innocent. The rest of their life is still salvageable, therefore, the system works. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/123 "2014-03-21T01:15:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You misquoted me. I said death row, which exposes them to the very real possibility of execution, not to mention the stress that entails year after year. Even that is morally wrong. Seems to me that it’d serve as an effective motivator for these blatantly innocent people to prove their case. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/124 "2014-03-21T01:18:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Seems to me that it’d serve as an effective motivator for these blatantly innocent people to prove their case. Is that how justice works in your head? The innocent must prove their case? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/125 "2014-03-21T01:44:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is that how justice works in your head? The innocent must prove their case? Once they’ve already been determined by a jury to be guilty of a capital offense? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/126 "2014-03-21T01:59:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The point is to prevent innocent people from being executed, right? We know that _some_ innocent people were saved from execution. We do not know that all innocent people on death row were spared from execution. This couldn’t be any simpler, but c’est la vie: your argument is ‘I am going to assume everything is fine because it suits my purposes to do so. I will not add two and two because I don’t want the answer to be four.’ I think 18 death row inmates have been exonerated since 1989, and hundreds of others with lesser sentences have been exonerated. Since this work is being done by private organizations who have to pick and choose their cases and it applies only to the small minority of cases where DNA evidence can be reviewed, the implications are troubling. And only on Bizarro World is it _good_ when innocent people are tried, convicted, sentenced to die, spend years in jail, and then set free - and I note **Smapti** ’s eerie implication that he’s not really interested in innocent people being exonerated. I guess it ruins the fun if you find yourself wondering if the guy on the gurney might’ve been innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/127 "2014-03-21T02:04:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And only on Bizarro World is it _good_ when innocent people are tried, convicted, sentenced to die, spend years in jail, and then set free - and I note **Smapti** ’s eerie implication that he’s not really interested in innocent people being exonerated. If innocent people are tried, convicted, sentenced to die, spend years in jail, and then set free, it means the system works, because we prevented the death of an innocent person. Perhaps you should be more concerned about why innocent people are being convicted at such an allegedly alarming rate than by the means which are used to punish the guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/128 "2014-03-21T05:19:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If innocent people are tried, convicted, sentenced to die, spend years in jail, and then set free, it means the system works, because we prevented the death of an innocent person. It actually means the system has failed in the second-worst way possible. The justice system isn’t supposed to periodically put innocent people in mortal danger in the first place. And when the system fails over and over again in the same ways - because people who are poor and nonwhite (or whose victims are white) are more likely to face the stiffest penalties, for example - it also raises alarming questions about bias. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you should be more concerned about why innocent people are being convicted at such an allegedly alarming rate than by the means which are used to punish the guilty. What a bizarre attempt at misdirection. I’m concerned about both problems, and they are strongly related. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/129 "2014-03-21T14:11:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So the argument is that innocent people are being executed, but we can’t prove that an innocent person has been executed, but it must have happened because otherwise our argument falls apart. You’ll forgive me for not finding this very convincing. The argument is that we can’t prove that an innocent person has been executed because the authorities charged with proving such matters _refuse to do so_. Private parties _could_ investigate the cases of people who have already been executed, but all the evidence will be at least 10 years old and they won’t have subpoena power. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/130 "2014-03-21T14:28:10Z")
**Smapti** , we don’t want to have a Libertarian-style justice system in which innocent people have to rely on the charity of strangers to avoid incarceration or death. The system has to cover all the bases itself or it isn’t functioning (unless the plan is for certain classes of people to fall through the cracks- ‘Libertarian-style’ always seems to involve a thumb on the scales). It is ‘Justice for All’, not ‘Justice if you’re lucky’. The Willingham case sure looks like one in which an innocent person was executed. It could have been prevented had Rick ‘ooops’ Perry taken the trouble to review the developments in that case. That’s disturbing- plenty of politicians like him get elected thanks to rank demagoguery, which introduces all kinds of bullshit motives into government that eventually resolve into bad results of one kind or other. But in the case of Tsarnaev, it doesn’t look like there will be a question of guilt. They have him on tape placing the exploding duffel bag in the crowd. He had bomb-making materials, probably computer evidence. He was the guy at the end of that deadly chase, and I think he confessed to boot. They got the guy. Racial bias isn’t going to be a factor as he is white as can be. Some might say there will be a bias against Muslims, but personally I don’t care about his religion- I’m horrified by the baseness of his crime and the lizard-like cold bloodedness required to carry it out. Maybe **John Mace** will come back in here and demonstrate how he’d plead for Tsarnaev’s life. He has come down against the death penalty, but more or less as a bare assertion. What is behind your position, **John**? For me, I return to an Alexander Hamilton quote: > [@](#): > > Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others Peace, war, the death penalty- whatever my opinion, they will proceed regardless. The only difference my opinion makes is in whether I make myself complicit in Tsarnaev’s death by approving it. That makes me quite uncomfortable these days- maybe with my resistance, decades down the road enough citizens will bring enough pressure to bear to end the death penalty. But OTOH, am I supposed to defend that guy? Contemptible doesn’t cut it- he’s close to being BP bad. I don’t wan’t to be complicit in assisting him either. Help me out, **John** (or whoever). How do we defend this guy specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/131 "2014-03-21T14:40:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The argument is that we can’t prove that an innocent person has been executed because the authorities charged with proving such matters _refuse to do so_. Actually, the authorities in charge have already proven them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And the verdicts survived years and decades of appeals. The anti-DP groups want to retry the case over and over and over until they get the result they want. Plus, consider the case mentioned earlier, of Roger Coleman. He was convicted and executed. After the fact, a more sophisticated form of DNA testing became available, and the evidence was retested. I will leave you to guess what the results were. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/132 "2014-03-21T14:48:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, the authorities in charge have already proven them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And the verdicts survived years and decades of appeals. The same is true of some people who we now know were wrongly convicted. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/133 "2014-03-21T14:59:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The same is true of some people who we now know were wrongly convicted. How many of them were executed? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/134 "2014-03-21T15:00:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How many of them were executed? We don’t know. That’s not a good answer when you’re talking about a criminal justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/135 "2014-03-21T15:02:24Z")
Anyone in favor of the death penalty should, in my view, spend a week reading the [Innocence Project](http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/)’s results. 314 people exonerated thus far through use of DNA. Notice how in virtually all the cases, the prosecution fought against testing, then fought against admitting the test results? Now imagine what would happen in a similar case with no DNA evidence preserved. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/136 "2014-03-21T15:05:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now imagine what would happen in a similar case with no DNA evidence preserved. [And note this:](http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/non-dna-exonerations.php) > [@](#): > > DNA testing alone cannot overturn most wrongful convictions. In fact, experts estimate that DNA testing is possible in just 5-10% of all criminal cases. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/137 "2014-03-21T16:20:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We don’t know. That’s not a good answer when you’re talking about a criminal justice system. On preview, never mind. If opposition to the DP were based on the idea that one or two are innocent, then there would be no opposition to the DP in cases where there was no doubt at all about guilt. Since there is, that can’t be the reason. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/138 "2014-03-21T16:22:41Z")
Sure it can. The argument is that even if you are not opposed to the death penalty on principle, you can see there are numerous glaring flaws in its implementation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/139 "2014-03-21T17:06:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On preview, never mind. If opposition to the DP were based on the idea that one or two are innocent, then there would be no opposition to the DP in cases where there was no doubt at all about guilt. Since there is, that can’t be the reason. That is _one_ reason. Perhaps death penalty proponents have difficulty weighing more than one factor at a time. Death penalty opponents do not, which is why (for example) **Bricker** is able to oppose the death penalty on race selectivity grounds even though he is in favor on principle. > [@](#): > > Actually, the authorities in charge have already proven them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And the verdicts survived years and decades of appeals. And yet somehow the proof failed. Note that the Innocence Project seeks new trials on behalf of people _who have exhausted the appeals process_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052/140 "2014-03-21T17:25:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That is _one_ reason. Perhaps death penalty proponents have difficulty weighing more than one factor at a time. Death penalty opponents do not, which is why (for example) **Bricker** is able to oppose the death penalty on race selectivity grounds even though he is in favor on principle. I had no idea that using a multi-pronged argument that involves both moral and practical concerns is cheating, but you live and you learn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/after-tsarnaev-is-in-the-ground-should-america-reconsider-its-capital-punishment-policy/684052.md?page=8)