# Again, a few "Christians" who give the rest a bad name **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390 "2003-07-05T16:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/61 "2003-07-06T02:28:14Z")
> [@](#): > > But are you seriously saying that it’s OK to attack people because of their religious convictions? And just where did I say that? I’ll wait No? Good. I may be an atheist, but I have stepped up any number of time to defend religious folk from unfair attacks and downright lies. I certainly don’t beleive in hating Jews for being Jews hating Catholics for being Catholcis, and so on. That does NOT mean the articles of one’s faith can’t be challenged. If one’s faith dictates that one must be a hateful, judgmental asshole; that one must burn books and dictate what other people read, view, and think; that one must spread lies and destroy people’s livelihoods as a pleasing sacrifice to the Most High, then I think the validity of one’s faith can jolly well be questioned. With that said, if o ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/62 "2003-07-06T02:33:38Z")
Huh. Jehovah struck him dead. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/63 "2003-07-06T02:35:58Z")
**Millen** : AFAIK, you picked exactly the wrong time to pull this shit. There are two or three self-described fundamentalists on this board who are held in very high regard by the community. **Vanilla** comes quickly to mind. **Scotticher** , though she prefers “conservative Christian” and probably doesn’t subscribe to all five petals of the TULIP, is so universally loved that anyone flaming her would be treated to the fastest growing Pit thread in history. Virtually no regular here has any problem with anyone else’s well-thought-through religious beliefs, or lack thereof. What we do have a problem with can be listed as follows: [ul][li] **Unwillingness to dialogue**. Someone who shows up to let us know that Jesus died for our sins and we need to repent, and who does not have the time nor courtesy to stop and answer questions, discuss issues raised by what he or she says, and who makes it obvious he or she does not care about what matters to the people he or she is witnessing to, is being a jerk – the evangelistic equivalent to jerking off to a Playboy centerfold, instead of actually getting to know a girl as a person. We’re convenient fodder for their need to “spread the Gospel” and not people about whom they care. And the mirror image of this is true too – the person struck by the realization that the God they learned about in Sunday School doesn’t exist, who is prepared to denounce everybody else’s beliefs as superstition or dominance games, is the antiparticle to the drive-by witnesser. (Unfortunately, they don’t mutually annihilate, though it did come close to happening in one thread!)[/li][li] **Hypocrisy**. If you believe in the literalness of the Bible commands, be prepared to be called on the ones you are not yourself keeping when you start using them to denounce somebody else.[/li][li] **False accusation** : The OP gives a good example of that. **Ivygirl** ’s brother-in-law is running a business tailored to meet a community market for recreation. Because some people at their church have bought into the idea that role-playing games are evil (nowhere mentioned in Scripture, AFAIK), they are out to destroy his business.[/li][li] **Attempts to enforce your morality on another** : The OP is a good example; the good Senator from Tennessee’s desire to limit marriage to what he thinks is what it ought to be, for religious reasons, is another.[/li][li] **Ignorance** : You may have noticed the purpose of this website: _ **fighting ignorance** _. Around here we believe in supporting what we say with facts, or the closest thing to them if the actual facts are not ascertainable, and in refuting viewpoints which fail to be supported by the facts. And any one of us may be in a thread siding with X against Y and still offer a fact that supports Y’s point – out of respect for the truth.[/li][li] **Bigotry**. If it’s not self-explanatory, you have problems.[/li][/ul] “Fundy” is no more hate speech than “’Piscy,” which **Siege** affectionately refers to the church she and I share, is. It’s often used to belittle the variety of fundamentalism which engages in hypocrisy, false accusations, refusal to dialogue, and attempts to enforce morality on others, like the people who have forced me away from another board I loved – and such an attitude deserves all the slamming it gets, IMHO. I honestly can see how you might have taken it as hate speech. But there’s one more quality we respect, though we don’t always practice, on this board, and I recommend it to you: **Get all the facts before you start bitching.** Good evening. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/64 "2003-07-06T02:36:24Z")
Nah, I just didn’t delete the last line. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/65 "2003-07-06T02:38:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*Wasn’t the line once “race, color or creed?” > > I’ve no problem with adding gender and the rest to the list, but why drop “creed?” Mind you, I don’t have a problem with the names you list, including “fundies,” as they are, IMO, only mildly pejorative. But are you seriously saying that it’s OK to attack people because of their religious convictions? \*\* Of course it’s ok. A belief is _chosen_, not inborn, and not all beliefs deserve equal respect. Respecting the _right_ to believe something does not mean I have to respect the belief, itself. If someone believes something which I think is fucking stupid it is not “hate speech” to express that opinion. White Supremacy is a “creed.” Does it deserve respect? It it “hate speech” to disparage the racist beliefs of the Nation of Islam? Is it hate speech to say that the Raelians are fucking morons? Religious beliefs do not deserve any more special protection than political or philosophical beliefs. (BTW, this is not to say that what **H4E** says about Catholics, LDS, etc, is just as ok. The difference is that H4E is not attacking _actual_ beliefs held by these groups but is, in fact, attributing beliefs to them which they _do not hold_, despite numerous attempts at correction.) ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/66 "2003-07-06T02:40:26Z")
And raised him up again! A miracle! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/67 "2003-07-06T02:46:29Z")
Looking back at my last post I realize I should have made it more clear that I meant that **beliefs** , _per se_, are fair game for attack. I don’t advocate _ad hominems_ against the people who hold them unless they’re being particularly obnoxious on an individual basis. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/68 "2003-07-06T02:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m just reacting to what I have deduced over the past three years on this board, and that is that the most detested and reviled group in this community are the christian fundamentalists. I would tend to agree. I simply do not believe that the simple use of the word “fundie” (which, as I noted, is used self-referentially by some posters), qualifies as part of that disdain. ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/69 "2003-07-06T02:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Of course it’s ok. A belief is _chosen_, not inborn, and not all beliefs deserve equal respect. Respecting the _right_ to believe something does not mean I have to respect the belief, itself. If someone believes something which I think is fucking stupid it is not “hate speech” to express that opinion. > > White Supremacy is a “creed.” Does it deserve respect? It it “hate speech” to disparage the racist beliefs of the Nation of Islam? Is it hate speech to say that the Raelians are fucking morons? > > Religious beliefs do not deserve any more special protection than political or philosophical beliefs. > > (BTW, this is not to say that what **H4E** says about Catholics, LDS, etc, is just as ok. The difference is that H4E is not attacking _actual_ beliefs held by these groups but is, in fact, attributing beliefs to them which they _do not hold_, despite numerous attempts at correction.) \*\* **Diogenes the Cynic** , I also reported you last night for using “fundie” in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/70 "2003-07-06T02:55:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*Sure, but 99% of religious bashing is against the fundamentalists by this board. \*\* That reminds of my earlier post - in which I stated that 99% of the followers of my childhood fundamentalist religion don’t own a computer, TV or radio. However, that’s just the view from MY side of the fence. Arguing about religious convictions is so pointless. You won’t change anyone’s mind tonight, and the original point of this post has been crushed under your feet. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/71 "2003-07-06T02:56:02Z")
Hell, we’ve had fundie atheists, like **Lolo** and **happy heathen**. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/72 "2003-07-06T03:06:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Millen \* > \*\ ***Diogenes the Cynic** , I also reported you last night for using “fundie” in another thread. \*\* Yeah, and I’ll bet the mods are falling over themselves to ban every poster who has ever used “fundie.” Moron. \*_Grienspace_, the fundamentlists who get bahsed, like \*_Jersey Diamond, His4Ever, and Joe\_Cool_ provoke controversy by posting grossly hateful comments in the first place. If A tells B that he is a hellbound homosexual who like to molest children, and B tells A to fuck off, A is not oppressed. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/73 "2003-07-06T03:23:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*If A tells B that he is a hellbound homosexual who like to molest children, and B tells A to fuck off, A is not oppressed. \*\* I am 99% confident that your statement will make sense to me in the light of the day, **gobear**! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/74 "2003-07-06T03:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Millen \* > \*\ ***Diogenes the Cynic** , I also reported you last night for using “fundie” in another thread. \*\* Don’t you have some books to burn? Geez. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/75 "2003-07-06T03:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blonde \* > \*\*I am 99% confident that your statement will make sense to me in the light of the day, **gobear**! 😃 \*\* Well, it might take a truth table, but the logic is fairly simple. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/76 "2003-07-06T03:26:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Yeah, and I’ll bet the mods are falling over themselves to ban every poster who has ever used “fundie.” > > Moron. > \*_Grienspace_, the fundamentlists who get bahsed, like \*_Jersey Diamond, His4Ever, and Joe\_Cool_ provoke controversy by posting grossly hateful comments in the first place. > > If A tells B that he is a hellbound homosexual who like to molest children, and B tells A to fuck off, A is not oppressed. \*\* It is not my intention to get anyone banned from this board. In each my two reports, I have stated that I would prefer that the offender not be banned. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/77 "2003-07-06T03:32:07Z")
Looking for something to keep yourself occupied, **Millen**? Here you go: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=729652&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=729652&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) (Ooops! Three of those were started by. . . a FUNDIE!) And here are some more: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=729663&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=729663&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=729667&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=729667&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/78 "2003-07-06T03:34:42Z")
Trust me, it will, **Blonde**. Hmm, I think I have the perfect fundie hymn in mind (go ahead and report me, **Millen** , and a fig for thee!) I think that Richard Wilbur’s lyrics in “Auto-Da-Fe” from _Candide_ epitomize the fundie POV (despite the Catholic Inquisition setting in 1755 Lisbon): > [@](#): > > CHORUS > What a day, what a day > For an auto-da-fé! > What a lovely day for drinking > And for watching people fry! > What a day, what a day, > Oh, what a day, > What a perfect day for hanging! > GRAND INQUISITOR > Silence! > INQUISITORS > Shall we let the sinners go or try them? > CHORUS > Try them. > INQUISITORS > Are the culprits innocent or guilty? > CHORUS > Guilty. > INQUISITORS > Shall we pardon them or hang them? > CHORUS > Hang them. > What a lovely day, what a jolly day, > What a day for a holiday! > He don’t mix meat and dairy, > He don’t eat humble pie, > So sing a miserere > And hang the bastard high! ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/79 "2003-07-06T03:38:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Millen \* > \*\*It is not my intention to get anyone banned from this board. In each my two reports, I have stated that I would prefer that the offender not be banned. \*\* That you think your complaint could cause a banning is ludicrous at best. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390/80 "2003-07-06T03:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I meant that **beliefs** , _per se_, are fair game for attack. I don’t advocate _ad hominems_ against the people who hold them unless they’re being particularly obnoxious on an individual basis. \*\* Which I agree with completely; I was surprised that **gobear** seemed to be saying ad hominems were fine and was seeking clarification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-few-christians-who-give-the-rest-a-bad-name/186390.md?page=5)