# Again, a plea to those convinced they will hate ROTS (unboxed spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307 "2005-04-20T20:35:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/21 "2005-04-20T22:06:14Z")
> [@](#): > > straight-up Jesus-figure role for Anakin to be too cliche Too cliche?! Good God, that was the whole point! That’s what made it universal! Not just Jesus, but any hero/god who was destroyed, redeemed, and resurrected. That’s why SW resonated. Mythology is full of examples. It’s in our blood (unlike the midi-chlorians, btw.) Jesus. Mithra. Quetzalcoatl. Osiris. Orpheus. Lazarus. Hundreds of 'em. The ideas reflected cleanly off the mythologies of a hundred civilizations. Most everyone could relate to it. > [@](#): > > Afterall, there is no central God figure in the Force Sure there is. It’s the Force. It’s what makes up the universe. WE are the Force. Life. > [@](#): > > so there has to be something to build up a reservoir of Force energy inside a random woman’s uterus. Uh, why? Why must there be a personification? Why not just call it…I dunno…fate? Destiny? Karma? How about the Force? Yeah! > [@](#): > > Either way, he needed Anakin to be the result of an immaculate conception, and he felt he needed at least some way of explaining how that could have been a possibility. If he really felt this way, then that tells me more eloquently than anything else that he lost the thread of what made SW great. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/22 "2005-04-20T22:17:05Z")
I’m still not seeing what the problem of a Force conduit is. Even if it was _just the Force_, as you put it, when you actually put forth the effort to make something move, it would have to come from somewhere. Some region of the brain most likely. But you know what, telekinesis is an impossibility. No amount of faith will help you pick up your computer off the desk with only your mind. However, in Star Wars, the Force is real. It’s concrete. If you concentrate hard enough, and believe you can do it, things will move. You will see glimpses of the future. You will be able to read and manipulate the feelings of others. Therefore it warrants an actual, factual explanation. You might not like that it has one, but it warrants one. You spout off all of this karma, religion, and faith. Prove to me any of _them_ exist. In the Star Wars universe, the Force is natural law. It’s real. So it’s got to come from something. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/23 "2005-04-20T22:27:37Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > I’m still not seeing what the problem of a Force conduit is. > > Even if it was _just the Force_, as you put it, when you actually put forth the effort to make something move, it would have to come from somewhere. Some region of the brain most likely. But you know what, telekinesis is an impossibility. No amount of faith will help you pick up your computer off the desk with only your mind. > > However, in Star Wars, the Force is real. It’s concrete. If you concentrate hard enough, and believe you can do it, things will move. You will see glimpses of the future. You will be able to read and manipulate the feelings of others. Therefore it warrants an actual, factual explanation. You might not like that it has one, but it warrants one. > > You spout off all of this karma, religion, and faith. Prove to me any of _them_ exist. > > In the Star Wars universe, the Force is natural law. It’s real. So it’s got to come from something. And that’s exactly the problem. Lucas started treating his universe as science fiction, in which everything needs a rational explanation, instead of what it’s been all along: a fantasy. The reason the new movies don’t have the magic of the original ones is, in large part, because Lucas specifically removed the magic from them by introducing a scientific explanation for the mystical aspects of his creation, which aspect was, arguably, its most attractive part. _Star Wars_ works wonderfully as a fairy tale. As science fiction, it’s an utter failure, and the more Lucas moves it towards the latter, the more it falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/24 "2005-04-20T22:32:03Z")
> [@](#): > > You spout off all of this karma, religion, and faith. Prove to me any of them exist. Sorry, buddy, but I’m an atheist. Also, your other objections don’t hold water. Star Wars is very much like a Bible story. It is told from the frame of reference of the religion. It’s a physical reality because that’s the provenance of the story. In the Bible, the parting of the Red Sea is a physical reality. Same exact thing. It’s still horseshit, of course, but the story is told from the frame of reference of the Bible. None of it needs a rational explanation. It’s mythology, pure and simple. Campbell and Lucas were close friends, and Lucas explicitly lifted most of his ideas for SW from Campbell’s ideas as presented in _The Power of Myth_, _Hero With a Thousand Faces_, and others. Star Wars was an experiment to create a convincing new mythological system out of whole cloth, but with same basic underpinnings as Campbell described. As such, not a shred of it needs a “scientific explanation.” In fact, such a thing merely obscures the theme. Campbell died. Maybe that’s what happened to the series. Lucas lost his touchstone since he no longer had Big Joe to slap him upside the head and say, “keep it simple, stupid!” ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/25 "2005-04-20T22:39:27Z")
OMG, I must have taken a wrong turn and ended up in Nerd Heaven! Dude, get out of the house and get some fresh air! BTW, I think Star Wars (all of them) suck, but you know what? That’s okay - really. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/26 "2005-04-20T22:46:13Z")
Maybe, but there are people who think even ROTJ was complete shit, and that Empire was the only true good movie of the saga because Lucas had the least involvement. I just can’t comprehend why people keep giving Lucas their money if they are so sure he’s strayed. I loved the old trilogy. I love the new trilogy too. Yes the dialogue and acting are deplorable in some parts but it retains many of the elements that I loved in the OT. I’m looking forward to Episode 3 with a level of excitement that can’t possibly be normal for a 20 year old. The fact that I might be in a theater packed with people just waiting for the _slightest_ thing that they disapprove of so that they can go rant to everyone they know (and on postboards) just pisses me off. Why be there if you know you’re going to find someway to be disappointed? I bet if those same people went back to the old trilogy with a clear head, they would find some of the same elements they hate about the prequels. They are often too overwhelmed by nostalgia to see them. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/27 "2005-04-20T22:51:21Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > . . . just pisses me off. Seriously, why? I think I am the only person in the whole wide world who loved Natural Born Killers. I still hear shit-talk about how much it sucks, blah blah blah, but WHO CARES? It’s only a movie. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/28 "2005-04-20T23:00:34Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > Well clearly YOU are the one who is wrong, based on evidence from the movies. Surely when Obi Wan, Anakin, and Yoda are in ghost form, there is no possible way for them to be composed of, or contain, midichlorians. They exist in purely spiritual form (at least to Luke, if no one else can see them). They wouldn’t be able to appear like that if midichlorians were the physical manifestation of the Force. > > As I said, conduits for spiritual energy. > > And why did Lucas feel it was necessary? Oh, I don’t know, maybe he thought too many people would find the straight-up Jesus-figure role for Anakin to be too cliche so he decided to actual explain it with science. Afterall, there is no central God figure in the Force, so there has to be something to build up a reservoir of Force energy inside a random woman’s uterus. > > Unless you think there should be Force “currents” that just happened to get stuck up there. > > Either way, he needed Anakin to be the result of an immaculate conception, and he felt he needed at least some way of explaining how that could have been a possibility. Holy cow. I just felt a great disturbance, as if millions of geeks cried out and were suddenly silenced. _This one post_ perfectly sums up why I despise _The Phantom Menace_ and resent George Lucas for fucking up a good thing. Before, it was exactly what **Ogre** and **Miller** describe so well – this grand fantasy story that tapped into common myths. It wasn’t just science fiction or movie serials or pure popcorn entertainment; it was an attempt to create an entirely new universe out of what’s familiar in ours. With its own spirituality, ancient civilizations and mythology, magic, knights who are also samurai, spaceships, robots, laser guns, melodrama, Good vs Evil, heroes and villains, stories of betrayal and redemption. Basically, it was a movie with _everything_. The midochlorian bullshit just turned it into _Star Trek_, with all that implies, right down to the arguments about whether a Star Destroyer could take on a Federation Starcruiser, people trying to learn Huttese as they would Klingon or Elvish, heated arguments over how the Force works exactly, and speculative, academic ponderings about what goes on inside a woman’s vagina. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/29 "2005-04-20T23:02:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > From what I’ve heard from people who have seen advanced screenings, it’s far and away the worst of the three. If these were from an article, cite? And if they were from friends and acquaintances, why didn’t they get you a ticket? Or more importantly, why didn’t you get them to get _me_ a ticket? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/30 "2005-04-20T23:06:11Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Holy cow. I just felt a great disturbance, as if millions of geeks cried out and were suddenly silenced. > > _This one post_ perfectly sums up why I despise _The Phantom Menace_ and resent George Lucas for fucking up a good thing. Before, it was exactly what **Ogre** and **Miller** describe so well – this grand fantasy story that tapped into common myths. It wasn’t just science fiction or movie serials or pure popcorn entertainment; it was an attempt to create an entirely new universe out of what’s familiar in ours. With its own spirituality, ancient civilizations and mythology, magic, knights who are also samurai, spaceships, robots, laser guns, melodrama, Good vs Evil, heroes and villains, stories of betrayal and redemption. Basically, it was a movie with _everything_. > > The midochlorian bullshit just turned it into _Star Trek_, with all that implies, right down to the arguments about whether a Star Destroyer could take on a Federation Starcruiser, people trying to learn Huttese as they would Klingon or Elvish, heated arguments over how the Force works exactly, and speculative, academic ponderings about what goes on inside a woman’s vagina. And one word, one little technicality, destroyed all that for you? Wow…and you all think _I_ have too much invested in this. That’s really sad. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/31 "2005-04-20T23:07:03Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > The people who feel Lucas has done irreversible damage to a saga they love out number the actual fans of the prequels at least 20 to 1. Does that tell you something? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/32 "2005-04-20T23:07:54Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > If these were from an article, cite? > > And if they were from friends and acquaintances, why didn’t they get you a ticket? > > Or more importantly, why didn’t you get them to get _me_ a ticket? 😛 Friends of friends, actually. Employees over at LucasArts who were working on Episode III-related video games. Even if I knew them well enough to ask for a ticket, they wouldn’t have been able to give me one. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/33 "2005-04-20T23:09:15Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > Why the fuck would you open a thread that said **unboxed** spoilers if you didn’t know what was being spoiled? Just to piss and moan? No. Because I \*love \* spoilers to movies I haven’t seen yet and don’t intend to see. Don’t know why, just do. It’s like a little treat for me. However, I do think that movies that haven’t even been released yet and people definitely haven’t seen need to be in spoilers or have the full title in the…um…title. He could have put Episode III. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/34 "2005-04-20T23:10:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Does that tell you something? If opinions here mirrored real life opinions, Kerry would have won the election. He didn’t. Does that tell you something? There is no reason to believe that a postboard is a balanced cross section of our society. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/35 "2005-04-20T23:15:13Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Holy cow. I just felt a great disturbance, as if millions of geeks cried out and were suddenly silenced. Wrong thread; ranting about Berman and Braga is the next door down. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/36 "2005-04-20T23:16:32Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > If opinions here mirrored real life opinions, Kerry would have won the election. He didn’t. > > Does that tell you something? > > There is no reason to believe that a postboard is a balanced cross section of our society. Well, if we’re so outnumbered in real life, why do you care? I mean, really, i just don’t understand all the angst over the fact that some people have a different opinion of a movie and its director. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/37 "2005-04-20T23:18:29Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > The instant he removed that spirituality, the entire series became the fucking _Ice Pirates_, except without the charm. Hey, don’t go criticizing Ice Pirates! That thing was great. It had people cutting giant electrical cables with swords. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/38 "2005-04-20T23:19:14Z")
Wow, and all of that. **Soapbox Monkey** , dude, do you have any idea how much I wanted these movies to be as magical as they were when I first saw Star Wars (I’ll pray you forgive me for not calling it _A New Hope_). I stood in line with three kids, 7, 5, and 3, to see Return of the Jedi the weekend it was released, and we all loved it. Oddly, I had great conversations with my children about everything from symbolism to sacrifice because of that movie. Hell, my daughters are 30, 28, and 26 now, and we still talk about it. Yeah, I am a fan. And maybe, because of all the things that **Ogre** and **Miller** have articulated so well, there is a portion of the fan base that feels like we are being cheated by the prequells. Why? Because the entire spirit has been changed from a universal Force, to fake biological force. Is it the end of the world? No, but when you have greatness, and **Soapbox Monkey** , I mean greatness, in your hands, you should not piss it away like this. The first two prequells cheapened our memories, and this one is likely to continue that. That is why we can’t get all positive. And in regards to the your commandment in the OP **don’t see the fucking movie,** I’ll spend my 9 bucks to see it, and bitch all I want. Don’t you dare tell me what to do or what not to do. If you can’t have your icons pissed on, well, you don’t understand free speach. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/39 "2005-04-20T23:25:56Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > The fact that I might be in a theater packed with people just waiting for the _slightest_ thing that they disapprove of so that they can go rant to everyone they know (and on postboards) just pisses me off. This is the other reason I’m going to be there opening night. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307/40 "2005-04-20T23:31:33Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > **don’t see the fucking movie.** > **don’t see the fucking movie.** > **don’t see the fucking movie.** Why do I have this sneaking suspicion you aren’t employed in LucasFilms marketing division? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/again-a-plea-to-those-convinced-they-will-hate-rots-unboxed-spoilers/300307.md?page=3)