# Against feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383 "2011-04-22T17:46:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/81 "2011-04-26T20:43:54Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Rape hysteria? When 1 in 4 women in America face sexual violence in their lifetime? (Much of which isn’t classified as rape by the FBI in their statistics because of the antiquated definition that is in use.) You see, I regard antiquated as accurate. Rape is rape. Things which aren’t rape shouldn’t be redefined as rape. And I don’t believe the one in four numbers. Lots, no doubt, and any number is too many, but inflated statistics based on wrongful definitions, like the famous Shere Hite study in which a rather large majority of those she found to have been raped denied being raped when actually asked the question. Inflating the numbers beyond those who are actually raped is merely an insult to real victims and fuel for fear. > [@](#): > > When fewer than 6% of rapes end up with a conviction? Cases dropped due to lack of evidence. Could be false allegations, could be the inherent difficulties in getting a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt when it’s one person’s word against another’s. Acquittals. Malicious allegations. Cases where the identity of the assailant couldn’t be determined. It’s not like crimes such as burglary, and so on, have really high clear-up rates. > [@](#): > > When judges in developed nations (more than one) have ruled that women weren’t raped _based on the tightness of their blue jeans_? When the chief “crime prevention” officer of the largest city in Canada said, not two months ago, that the best advice he can give to prevent rape is “don’t dress like a slut?” When rape is seen as a proper “punishment” for gender variance and lesbianism according to a judge in North Carolina? I’d like the see some evidence for this sort of thing going on. And, preferably, for such people keeping their jobs afterwards. To me, that sort of idea just sounds like something you wouldn’t find after about 1950, even in Kentucky. > [@](#): > > You don’t think that it is reasonable to see this as a crisis which requires strong countermeasures and every possible deterrent? I don’t think anything ought to be treated with _every_ possible deterrent. That’s what the rape hysteria has driven us towards. That’s why alleged rapists are dragged through the mud, while their accusers are left anonymous. That’s why false accusations are very rarely punished. That’s why the government offers compensation to victims of rape, even without a conviction (UK policy, that). And so on. A laudable effort to reduce crime simply taken too far, due to the, for want of a better term, hysteria. Rape should be treated like any other violent crime, same standards of investigation, same burden of proof, same type of trial. Same protections for both victim and wrongfully accused. > [@](#): > > You think it’s overstating the case to say that this is an omnipresent issue for all women, and a daily grave danger for certain women and in certain places? You think it’s disproportionate to be concerned when we’re submerged 24/7 in rape culture? I do think that, yes. Specifically I don’t think we are submerged in a rape culture. I’m not entirely sure what it’s meant to mean, but I assume a culture in which rape is minimised, or condoned, or something similar. In reality it is enthusiastically punished, commonly regarded as worse than murder, its alleged perpetrators seen as the scum of the earth. It might be considered to be a daily grave danger, omnipresent issue and so on but, limiting our remarks to the West once again for clarity’s sake, it’s really quite rare. IF there is a pervasive fear of it, that’s due to inflated figures and politically motivated fear-mongering. On those grounds I consider the current social environment around rape to be characterised by hysteria: groundless fear, rush to judgement, I’m thinking of the mob with the “castrate” banners in the Duke rape case, for example. The fact that rape is relatively rare yet receives all this attention, the special legal measures, the funding for the rape crisis centres, the no-drop police policies and so on, is disproportionate. > [@](#): > > And don’t think that the use of the word “hysteria” and its coding went unnoticed. Silly women, making mountains out of molehills again, wanting bodily autonomy. Yeah, that was about as slick as sandpaper. No coding intended. Men get just as hysterical about it, all that knight in shining armour stuff. I in so sense meant to use it as a reference to wombs or uterii. Rape is bad. It’s like a child abuse/satanic ritual abuse situation. Child abuse is bad, it’s too common, it needs addressing. That doesn’t mean a hysteria can’t develop around it. ---
**Author:** ![boozilu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@boozilu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boozilu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/82 "2011-04-26T22:21:04Z")
Sorry, nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/83 "2011-04-27T00:29:21Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I call bullshit on the “but women LOVE staying at home with the kids” thing. Staying at home with the kids is nice, but for most women it’s not as nice as a rewarding and challenging career. If women loved it so much, they wouldn’t be complaining so loud about how having a kid ruins their career- they’d be fine with it. But spending all day playing patty cakes with toddlers suck. We’d generally rather be with the adults. Since the work of raising kids has to be done, we’d rather find some way to share that burden. But, because of these power differentials, it often makes most sense for us to stay home. It’s a stupid system that denies people on both sides the chance to reach their full human potential, and it’s time to dismantle it. You may be falling under the New York Times fallacy, where all the women interviewed for an article are doctors, lawyers, or at least at the corporate vice presidential level. Most women, and men, don’t have challenging and rewarding careers. However, I have seen a lot more openness for men in the current generation to stay home as opposed to mine, when it makes financial sense. It is becoming more of a financial decision than a gender decision. There is a long way to go, but the movement has begun. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/84 "2011-04-27T00:42:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Anyone who doesn’t think there was a need for feminism never lived through the time. Word. > [@even\_sven](#): > > If nature ruled, a guy would probably kill his wife’s previous offspring when they remarried. We don’t do that. We built a society that allows us to rise above that. If our closest relatives were lions, vs. chimpanzees and bonobos, perhaps. > [@](#): > > The fact remains- if I want to have a full career, I will probably have to choose not to have a family. Men do not have to make that choice. Only because he’s got a wife at home who wants to raise the kids. > [@](#): > > I call bullshit on the “but women LOVE staying at home with the kids” thing. Staying at home with the kids is nice, but for most women it’s not as nice as a rewarding and challenging career. And I call bullshit on that, both because you are exaggerating “prefer” into “LOVE”, and because most of the women I know with children may not find every aspect of it thrilling, no sane person would, but they treasure being able to be with their children over their “careers” (especially since “rewarding and challenging careers” aren’t being handed out like candy) Which kinda makes sense, you know, seeing as how people in general love their families and would prefer to be able to spend a whole boatload more time with them. > [@](#): > > It’s a stupid system that denies people on both sides the chance to reach their full human potential, and it’s time to dismantle it. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/85 "2011-04-27T01:41:58Z")
Early feminism as championed by the likes of Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B. Anthony I have no problem with. Modern day feminism as promoted by the likes of Amanda Marcotte or Jessica Valenti I have a big problem with. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/86 "2011-04-27T03:26:59Z")
If women are perfectly happy with simple lives as caregivers, why are they fighting so hard- around the world, for decades- to do more? I’m going into a high-commitment career, and you can bet I resent the hell out of the fact that this has a direct effect on my family life that it doesn’t have on my male counterparts. > [@Hold\_Fast](#): > > People nowadays hate the status quo, but believe it or not, it didn’t become that way because of some conspiracy men devised in a dark corner. More times than not, girls are gonna like the colors pink and yellow over black and blue. You do know that pink used to be the “boys” color, right? We do not live in the magic default society where all things are equal except for our god-given differences. We live in a society as ripe with power dynamics as any other. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/87 "2011-04-27T03:32:42Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > If our closest relatives were lions, vs. chimpanzees and bonobos, perhaps. We, naturally, should be having all kinds of crazy sex with whoever, wherever. Humans are, after all, perpetually fertile. We should abandon our elderly, at least those not involved in child-rearing. What good do they do, exactly? We should basically never choose not to have children (which is kind of odd, considering lots of beautiful and competent women are choosing not to have children.) Virginity should be a bizarre thing to value. Doesn’t it make more sense to spend your time with a woman whose been proven to be fertile? Etc, etc. We are not cavemen and it’s silly to pretend like we are. ---
**Author:** ![Hold\_Fast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58f4c7/32.png) [@Hold\_Fast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hold_Fast)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/88 "2011-04-27T03:55:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You do know that pink used to be the “boys” color, right? …I don’t suppose you have some sort of follow up presentation to back up this claim ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/89 "2011-04-27T04:08:20Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > We, naturally, should be having all kinds of crazy sex with whoever, wherever. Humans are, after all, perpetually fertile. > > We should abandon our elderly, at least those not involved in child-rearing. What good do they do, exactly? > > We should basically never choose not to have children (which is kind of odd, considering lots of beautiful and competent women are choosing not to have children.) > > Virginity should be a bizarre thing to value. Doesn’t it make more sense to spend your time with a woman whose been proven to be fertile? > > Etc, etc. We are not cavemen and it’s silly to pretend like we are. ??? All I was doing was pointing out that your assertion that men would kill other men’s children isnt’ accurate, because it isn’t even accurate about our closest “non-civilized” relatives. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/90 "2011-04-27T04:22:11Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Early feminism as championed by the likes of Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B. Anthony I have no problem with. Modern day feminism as promoted by the likes of Amanda Marcotte or Jessica Valenti I have a big problem with. Not familiar with them, and some quick Google/wiki didn’t make anything in particular pop. Care to clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/91 "2011-04-27T04:27:11Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Well, I don’t believe that women suffer unequal treatment and men enjoy privileges in modern western society. In the past, maybe. In Saudi Arabia. But not in the modern, Anglophone, world. Feminism in Saudi Arabia, I’ve got less of a problem with. Not sure I’ve got the energy, but, before I read this thing… -At what point would you say feminism became obsolete in America? (Unless you believe that American women have always enjoyed equal status. unlike Saudi Arabia.) Right around when you grew up, by any chance? -If you do concede that there are still countries where women might not enjoy this equality, or even full human being status, how do you think American society is affected when they immigrate to the US? How long do you imagine it takes to integrate into society and to shed these cultural values? Or is it an Ellis Island about-change? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/92 "2011-04-27T04:32:43Z")
> [@Hold\_Fast](#): > > …I don’t suppose you have some sort of follow up presentation to back up this claim If you don’t trust [this cite](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2831/was-pink-originally-the-color-for-boys-and-blue-for-girls), I can’t imagine what would please you… [Here’s an interesting chart](http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/colours-in-cultures/)of what different colors mean in different cultures. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/93 "2011-04-27T04:35:51Z")
> [@Hold\_Fast](#): > > …I don’t suppose you have some sort of follow up presentation to back up this claim [The master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2831/was-pink-originally-the-color-for-boys-and-blue-for-girls). It’s gone back and forth at different points, but almost certainly is not some kind of genetic preference. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/94 "2011-04-27T06:17:18Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > You see, I regard antiquated as accurate. Rape is rape. Exactly, rape is rape. But that’s _not_ what the FBI statistics count. They only count _forcible_ rape. So people under 18 whose rapes are charged as child molestation don’t count. People who are intoxicated or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol (whether by their rapist or themselves) to a point that they cannot consent don’t count. People who have their lack of consent ignored by someone they know, classed as acquaintance rape (also known as “date rape”) don’t count. All of the victims of those sorts of sexual violence are raped. But according the antiquated FBI definition, which hasn’t been updated in 90 years, while our understanding of the rights of all people to bodily autonomy and freedom from violence, they don’t count. And neither do _men_. Because the FBI definition of rape states that it is specifically limited to forced vaginal penetration of women. > [@](#): > > Cases dropped due to lack of evidence. Lack of evidence is rarely a problem. It often comes down to a skewed sense of whether or not the complaining witness has “credibility” based on a standard that still says that what a woman wears, where she goes and how she acts has a mitigating effect on whether the violence she endures at someone else’s hand matters. > [@](#): > > Could be false allegations, According to the FBI even under their skewed definition, in the last year they calculated it out, fewer than 8% of all rapes reported in the US are “unfounded” which means unsupportable or _withdrawn_, but not necessarily false – the false number is usually capped around 2%. ([http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius\_97/96CRIME/96crime2.pdf](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_97/96CRIME/96crime2.pdf)) One of the primary reasons for reports being classified as unfounded is that the victim is under the influence of drugs or alcohol when making the report. But studies have shown that alcohol is involved in more than half of all rape incidents, and in 4 out of 5 cases of acquaintance rape. ([Cites 1](http://www.aaets.org/arts/art13.htm) & [2](http://www.alertcarolina.unc.edu/go/doc/1395/871243/Facts-About-Sexual-Assault-Including-Acquaintance-Rape)) Figures from the UK are in alignment. ([http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf](http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf)) And there is a cycle in play. We are told that there are scores of vindictive women making false allegations, and thus, the bar for making a believable allegation is set higher and higher. Thus more allegations viewed as unfounded or “false” over time, and the belief that those allegations were false is reified, and the problem feeds itself, [to the extent that there was a Senate subcommittee hearing into multiple large police departments efforts to disregard or downplay rape allegations via the “unfounded” label or charges being reduced to lesser crimes](http://articles.philly.com/2010-09-07/news/24979478_1_report-assaults-philadelphia-police-john-f-timoney)) and a growing number of women who are persistent in their rape claims are being arrested themselves, for making false charges. In another noted example, [the police department of New Orleans was recently called out for a de facto policy of just not interviewing **named** sexual assault suspects](http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/03/sex_crime_unit_of_new_orleans.html) and for designing “investigations” in a fashion meant to dismiss allegations as false rather than gathering enough evidence to prove them true in court. That would also include cases like that of [Sara Reedy](http://www.womenslawproject.org/NewPages/wkVAW_Reedy_PR080410.html) who was raped in the course of a robbery at the minimart where she worked outside of Pittsburgh. Police disbelieved Reedy in part because she froze when the rapist had his gun to her head, rather than trying to reach for an alarm button and decided she made up the story to cover for stealing the money herself. She spent several days in jail. Given this cycle and the poor rate of arrest and conviction, a rape allegation is a really lousy method of hurting someone. There’s just no traction to the suggestion that any significant number of people would go through the process of a forensic rape exam, the intrusive nature of the questioning given a rape victim and the approbation that attaches, especially when the victim is disbelieved, when so little happens in most cases. (See: [this breakdown](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates).) The practices of the criminal justice system, in the face of rape allegations, empower rapists by discouraging victims of sexual violence from reporting the crimes against them. > [@](#): > > I’d like the see some evidence for this sort of thing going on. And, preferably, for such people keeping their jobs afterwards. Examples? Gladly. I could do this all night. [ul] [li]Tight jeans = no rape is a bad old idea that keeps coming back. [1999 in Italy](http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/16/world/ruling-on-tight-jeans-and-rape-sets-off-anger-in-italy.html) and [2008 in Korea and 2010 in Australia](http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/rape-of-woman-in-skinny-jeans-not-possible-20100430-tzai.html)[/li][li][Judge: Lesbians should face “corrective” rape to cure them](http://stopmilitaryrape.org/news/2010/11/27/us-judge-says-lesbians-can-be-%E2%80%98cured%E2%80%99-by-male-soldiers/) (Correction: it was Tennessee, not North Carolina.) (Related: [Corrective rape unchecked epidemic in South Africa](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/4982520/Lesbians-subjected-to-corrective-rape-in-South-Africa.html).[/li][li]Toronto crime prevention officer: [“Don’t dress like a slut”](http://www.excal.on.ca/news/dont-dress-like-a-slut-toronto-cop/). (This has spawned a [grassroots global protest movement entitled “Slutwalk”](http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/a-global-movement).)[/li][li][Winnepeg judge: You wore a tube top, high heels and makeup and flirted? You weren’t raped. Doesn’t matter if you said no. Even if you have scars.](http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/rape-victim-inviting-so-no-jail--rape-victim-inviting-so-no-jail-116801578.html)[/li][li]Idaho GOP legislator: [Pregnancies resulting from rape are a sign of the _hand of God_ at work](http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/apr/06/idaho-house-passes-abortion-bill/) an echo of the once & future GOP Senate candidate from Nevada who said that it’s [God’s plan](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/29/sharron-angle-opposes-abo_n_629371.html) (plus that Justin Beiber kid, who’s more influential than either).[/li][li]The U.S. military’s “secret” shame: [a shocking number of male-on-male sexual assaults](http://www.newsweek.com/2011/04/03/the-military-s-secret-shame.html) (remember, they’re not officially rape because that can only happen to women).[/li][li]Not as secret or as shameful as [41% of female army troops reporting sexual assault, 29% reporting rape at the hands of male soldiers](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-harman31mar31,0,5399612.story). [That number is 18.9% in the Air Force](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2011/0317/Exclusive-1-in-5-Air-Force-women-victim-of-sexual-assault-survey-finds). A woman on active duty in the U.S. military is more likely to be raped than hurt or killed in the line of duty, by orders of magnitude. This perpetuates largely because punishment rarely occurs.[/li][li]Less than a month ago, [Irish police “joked” about raping several female protestors while they were in custody](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0405/1224293869954.html). They were [recorded while doing so](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0405/1224293869992.html?via=rel), but the situation is still “under investigation.”[/li][/ul] Is that enough examples? Because I’ve got more than a dozen more. And that’s what people mean when they talk about the frequently Dope-dismissed concept of “rape culture.” And I can understand why the idea is so distressing. Those of us who talk and write about this topic are frequently rebuffed with the “argument” that we’re just being _hysterical_ and that rape jokes (and misuse of the word) and very problematic depictions of women, women’s sexuality and rape in popular culture and _the actual statistics and stories_ of how rape is handled in the criminal justice, medical and legislative arenas don’t matter. We’re told that anti-rape advocacy is a waste of time and _fearmongering_, because all good people already agree that rape is a terrible thing, and propagate the myth that “good” people, the ones who dress right (not like “sluts” and not in skirts, and not in tight pants but not in loose pants, and not in exercise gear, and not in pajamas) and act right (don’t flirt, but don’t have no interest in men at all, be nice but not too nice, have fun but always always be on your guard) and don’t hang out with the wrong people (like their father, brothers, husbands, their boyfriends, their co-workers, their classmates, their fellow soldiers, their bosses, cab drivers, police officers, priests or doctors and dentists) and go to the wrong places (like jogging paths, parties, bars, swimming pools, gyms, parking garages, elevators, their own workplaces, medical appointments, schools, homes and dorm rooms or anywhere at night) don’t get raped. But even under the most restricted statistics, more women will be raped than will ever get breast cancer or have heart attacks, the prevention of both of which are talked about every day in every medium and have voluble public campaigns dedicated to prevention and treatment efforts. Yet it’s hysterical and over the top and unnecessary to talk about prevention and appropriate response (treatment) of sexual violence. You yourself used some of those very words. You said that rape in enthusiastically punished. A six percent conviction rate is not enthusiastic punishment. Police departments refusing to interview suspects is not enthusiastic. While the rate of other violent crimes has receded, the rate of sexual violence has not, and that’s only within the western paradigm of reporting such crimes to police who aggregate numbers, but this problem is clearly greater than that. You didn’t ask for examples of the use of rape as a weapon of war and political manipulation, but it has the _exact same oppressive results_ outside of its organized use. But it’s impolite to talk about that, clearly, and heaven forbid one should be so _hysterical_ about it. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/95 "2011-04-27T08:02:31Z")
With increased egalitarianism it’s interesting to observe that some things stay, or even seem to get stronger, perhaps pointing to a biological or sexual strategy purpose. Like slut shaming. With increased pornification and widespread acceptance of casual sex and media that seems to try to glorify being slutty you’d think this would diminish if not disappear entirely. Not so. It’s too useful, apparently. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We are not some legion of slavering rapists, no matter how much believing that appeals to the egos of many women. Yeah we are. Besides our predilection for combining violence and sex, or the criminal statistics, or the history of rape and warfare, or child sexual abuse, what about what we say and want? Have you ever been with a group of guys talking about women when no women were around? > [@](#): > > You complain about a supposed implication that women are hysterical, and in almost the same breath all but say that men are a collection of monsters. We are monsters, which is useful at some times (like defending the tribe or planning a raid for the neighboring village) and not so at other times. The only cure would be genetic engineering, which would probably be discovered by some nerdy male scientist who would never hurt a fly. I suppose that should make us reflect on the dual nature of masculinity, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/96 "2011-04-27T08:22:40Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Yeah we are. Besides our predilection for combining violence and sex, or the criminal statistics, or the history of rape and warfare, or child sexual abuse, what about what we say and want? Have you ever been with a group of guys talking about women when no women were around? Yes. And? If you hang out with men who think rape is OK, that means you have a poor selection of friends not that men are all rapists. > [@marshmallow](#): > > We are monsters, which is useful at some times (like defending the tribe or planning a raid for the neighboring village) and not so at other times. The only cure would be genetic engineering, which would probably be discovered by some nerdy male scientist who would never hurt a fly. I suppose that should make us reflect on the dual nature of masculinity, or something. No, it reflects on just how deep anti-male bigotry has become among some factions of society. You sound like the mirror image of the fundies who blame women for all the evil in the world. Although I expect you’ll get _far_ better reception for your accusation than someone would who posted that “all _women_ are monsters”. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/97 "2011-04-27T08:43:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it reflects on just how deep anti-male bigotry has become among some factions of society. Or it’s a reflection of how submerged we all are in a culture of sexualized violence. It’s never easy to reflect on the flaws that pervade the atmosphere in which we live, and clearly, some people are absolutely dead set not only against the idea that it could be so, but that anybody would dare argue that it’s so. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/98 "2011-04-27T09:12:38Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Not familiar with them, and some quick Google/wiki didn’t make anything in particular pop. > > Care to clarify? Gladly. I’m not so sure how to put this kindly, but Amanda Marcotte is a misandrist and a raging bigot who completely fails to realize she’s a misandrist and a raging bigot, who instead chooses to blame everything on the fact that she’s a woman and that the patriarchy is out to get and ruin her, effectively “putting her in her place”. Contrary to whatever she might claim, she cares nothing about equality between the sexes. As Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are colorblind (as in the color of the individuals skin makes them blind to the facts), she is genderblind. She’ll readily support gross inequalities (for example, she’s nothing nice to say about men’s right groups), while claiming that holding women to the same standard as a man is inherently misogynistic. Her involvement and blind support of Crystal Gail Mangum in the Duke case, coupled with the numerous disparaging comments she made about the players, the Catholic Church and pretty much anyone she doesn’t agree with (i.e., anyone who doesn’t think like her) makes me want no part in whatever brand on feminism she’s pushing. She’s the very thing she crusades against. Irony really is wasted on the stupid. Jessica Valenti is much the same way, only she likes to overuse profanity, somehow tries to pass of personal anecdotes (and pretty glaring generalizations) as fact and seems to be fixated on the assumption that women only seem to do things because guys want them to, not because they want to (apparently, women are easily manipulated). I have little desire to listen to one trick ponies whose entire arguments boil down to blaming everything on the patriarchy, insinuate that those who disagree with them are misogynists or make consistent references to “rape culture”/being a “rape enabler” while perpetuating inequalities so long as they benefit women. > [@tumbleddown](#): > > Exactly, rape is rape. But that’s not what the FBI statistics count. They only count forcible rape. So people under 18 whose rapes are charged as child molestation don’t count. People who are intoxicated or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol (whether by their rapist or themselves) to a point that they cannot consent don’t count. People who have their lack of consent ignored by someone they know, classed as acquaintance rape (also known as “date rape”) don’t count. One, neither the UCR nor NIBRS reporting systems exclude people who are intoxicated or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol and cannot consent. Two, men are only excluded in the UCR reporting system, not the NIBRS reporting. Three, statutory rape isn’t included because, in cases where no force is used, it’s listed under sex offenses or aggravated assaults. > [@](#): > > Issue # 5: Clarification Regarding the Definition of Forcible Rape in the Summary system and the NIBRS > > It is well known that the NIBRS definition of Forcible Rape allows for the possibility of a male victim and a female offender, which is not permissible in the Summary system. However, there are additional, albeit subtle, differences in reporting forcible rape between the NIBRS and Summary system as well. > > In the Summary system, forcible rape is defined as “The carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” (Emphasis added) (UCR Handbook [2004], page 19.) In the NIBRS, forcible rape is defined as “The carnal knowledge of a person, forcibly and/or against that person’s will or not forcibly or against the person’s will in instances where the victim is incapable of giving consent because of his/her temporary or permanent mental or physical incapacity.” (Emphasis added) (NIBRS Volume 1: Data Collection Guidelines [August 2000], page 33.) > > **The discrepancy exists with the and/or wording of the NIBRS definition. Literal interpretations of the definitions indicate that Summary agencies should ensure that both circumstances should be met before classifying an offense as a Forcible Rape and NIBRS agencies need only one circumstance to meet the classification. However, the national Program staff do not discern a substantive difference between the two definitions outside of gender; the change in language reflects a clarification of the intent of the collection of this offense rather than a modification. There is not a substantive difference between the Summary and NIBRS definitions on this particular point, i.e., in either system, the carnal knowledge is obtained forcibly and/or against the respective victim’s will.** > > The FBI requests that all law enforcement agencies, whether the agencies submit data via the Summary system or the NIBRS, report forcible rapes as appropriate. [Link](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/nibrs/developments-in-nibrs/2007-bulletins#forciblerapeinsummary) > [@](#): > > Lack of evidence is rarely a problem. It often comes down to a skewed sense of whether or not the complaining witness has “credibility” based on a standard that still says that what a woman wears, where she goes and how she acts has a mitigating effect on whether the violence she endures at someone else’s hand matters. That’s a pretty warped view you have there. Contrary to whatever it is you might believe, there is no over-arching, grand diabolical scheme to let rapists off the hook because the raped was “asking for it”. The way the system works is that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Therefore, if a man or a woman claims that (s)he was raped, (s)he has to sufficiently prove that the individual (s)he says raped them, actually did. Would you rather a system in which the accused has to prove his or herself innocent against the accusations of another, or suffer the consequences (i.e., imprisonment)? Such a system would be nothing short of a trainwreck. > [@](#): > > Given this cycle and the poor rate of arrest and conviction, a rape allegation is a really lousy method of hurting someone. There’s just no traction to the suggestion that any significant number of people would go through the process of a forensic rape exam, the intrusive nature of the questioning given a rape victim and the approbation that attaches, especially when the victim is disbelieved, when so little happens in most cases. (See: this breakdown.) **The practices of the criminal justice system, in the face of rape allegations, empower rapists by discouraging victims of sexual violence from reporting the crimes against them**. The stigma of simply being accused of being a rapist is more than enough to damage someone’s reputation for life, even if nothing comes of it. (And as a side note, I just want to say that the **bolded** is utterly ridiculous. Again, the criminal justice system does not require one to prove themselves innocent when faced with a charge; rather, the burden of proof is on the accuser. That’s not something which is special to rape, but it uniformly applied to everything.) > [@](#): > > Idaho GOP legislator: Pregnancies resulting from rape are a sign of the hand of God at work an echo of the once & future GOP Senate candidate from Nevada who said that it’s God’s plan (plus that Justin Beiber kid, who’s more influential than either). It’s a fairly large logical leap from “You shouldn’t abort a child solely because it was conceived in rape” to “Rape is okay”. In fact, it’s an Earth-to-the-moon sized leap. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/99 "2011-04-27T09:15:56Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Or it’s a reflection of how submerged we all are in a culture of sexualized violence. It’s never easy to reflect on the flaws that pervade the atmosphere in which we live, and clearly, some people are absolutely dead set not only against the idea that it could be so, but that anybody would dare argue that it’s so. :rolleyes: That’s utterly ridiculous. Men are bigger, stronger and _half the population_. If men were so evil the _overwhelming majority_ of women would be raped, and on a regular basis assuming they weren’t killed out of hand. No woman would be so much as able to drive to the shopping mall without being dragged out of her car by mobs of rapists. Again; you are just demonstrating how popular it is in some subcultures to demonize men, in ways that wouldn’t be tolerated on this board or most other places if they were aimed at women. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383/100 "2011-04-27T09:16:22Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > We are monsters… Who is this ‘we’ you speak of? I’m pretty sure I’ve never raped anyone, nor have any real desire to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-feminism/579383.md?page=6)