Against feminism

You see, I regard antiquated as accurate. Rape is rape. Things which aren’t rape shouldn’t be redefined as rape. And I don’t believe the one in four numbers. Lots, no doubt, and any number is too many, but inflated statistics based on wrongful definitions, like the famous Shere Hite study in which a rather large majority of those she found to have been raped denied being raped when actually asked the question.

Inflating the numbers beyond those who are actually raped is merely an insult to real victims and fuel for fear.

Cases dropped due to lack of evidence. Could be false allegations, could be the inherent difficulties in getting a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt when it’s one person’s word against another’s. Acquittals. Malicious allegations. Cases where the identity of the assailant couldn’t be determined. It’s not like crimes such as burglary, and so on, have really high clear-up rates.

I’d like the see some evidence for this sort of thing going on. And, preferably, for such people keeping their jobs afterwards. To me, that sort of idea just sounds like something you wouldn’t find after about 1950, even in Kentucky.

I don’t think anything ought to be treated with every possible deterrent. That’s what the rape hysteria has driven us towards. That’s why alleged rapists are dragged through the mud, while their accusers are left anonymous. That’s why false accusations are very rarely punished. That’s why the government offers compensation to victims of rape, even without a conviction (UK policy, that). And so on.

A laudable effort to reduce crime simply taken too far, due to the, for want of a better term, hysteria. Rape should be treated like any other violent crime, same standards of investigation, same burden of proof, same type of trial. Same protections for both victim and wrongfully accused.

I do think that, yes. Specifically I don’t think we are submerged in a rape culture. I’m not entirely sure what it’s meant to mean, but I assume a culture in which rape is minimised, or condoned, or something similar. In reality it is enthusiastically punished, commonly regarded as worse than murder, its alleged perpetrators seen as the scum of the earth.

It might be considered to be a daily grave danger, omnipresent issue and so on but, limiting our remarks to the West once again for clarity’s sake, it’s really quite rare. IF there is a pervasive fear of it, that’s due to inflated figures and politically motivated fear-mongering.

On those grounds I consider the current social environment around rape to be characterised by hysteria: groundless fear, rush to judgement, I’m thinking of the mob with the “castrate” banners in the Duke rape case, for example.

The fact that rape is relatively rare yet receives all this attention, the special legal measures, the funding for the rape crisis centres, the no-drop police policies and so on, is disproportionate.

No coding intended. Men get just as hysterical about it, all that knight in shining armour stuff. I in so sense meant to use it as a reference to wombs or uterii.

Rape is bad. It’s like a child abuse/satanic ritual abuse situation. Child abuse is bad, it’s too common, it needs addressing. That doesn’t mean a hysteria can’t develop around it.

Sorry, nothing to see here.

You may be falling under the New York Times fallacy, where all the women interviewed for an article are doctors, lawyers, or at least at the corporate vice presidential level. Most women, and men, don’t have challenging and rewarding careers.
However, I have seen a lot more openness for men in the current generation to stay home as opposed to mine, when it makes financial sense. It is becoming more of a financial decision than a gender decision. There is a long way to go, but the movement has begun.

Word.

If our closest relatives were lions, vs. chimpanzees and bonobos, perhaps.

Only because he’s got a wife at home who wants to raise the kids.

And I call bullshit on that, both because you are exaggerating “prefer” into “LOVE”, and because most of the women I know with children may not find every aspect of it thrilling, no sane person would, but they treasure being able to be with their children over their “careers” (especially since “rewarding and challenging careers” aren’t being handed out like candy) Which kinda makes sense, you know, seeing as how people in general love their families and would prefer to be able to spend a whole boatload more time with them.

Good luck with that.

Early feminism as championed by the likes of Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B. Anthony I have no problem with. Modern day feminism as promoted by the likes of Amanda Marcotte or Jessica Valenti I have a big problem with.

If women are perfectly happy with simple lives as caregivers, why are they fighting so hard- around the world, for decades- to do more? I’m going into a high-commitment career, and you can bet I resent the hell out of the fact that this has a direct effect on my family life that it doesn’t have on my male counterparts.

You do know that pink used to be the “boys” color, right?

We do not live in the magic default society where all things are equal except for our god-given differences. We live in a society as ripe with power dynamics as any other.

We, naturally, should be having all kinds of crazy sex with whoever, wherever. Humans are, after all, perpetually fertile.

We should abandon our elderly, at least those not involved in child-rearing. What good do they do, exactly?

We should basically never choose not to have children (which is kind of odd, considering lots of beautiful and competent women are choosing not to have children.)

Virginity should be a bizarre thing to value. Doesn’t it make more sense to spend your time with a woman whose been proven to be fertile?

Etc, etc. We are not cavemen and it’s silly to pretend like we are.

…I don’t suppose you have some sort of follow up presentation to back up this claim

???

All I was doing was pointing out that your assertion that men would kill other men’s children isnt’ accurate, because it isn’t even accurate about our closest “non-civilized” relatives.

Not familiar with them, and some quick Google/wiki didn’t make anything in particular pop.

Care to clarify?

Not sure I’ve got the energy, but, before I read this thing…

-At what point would you say feminism became obsolete in America? (Unless you believe that American women have always enjoyed equal status. unlike Saudi Arabia.) Right around when you grew up, by any chance?

-If you do concede that there are still countries where women might not enjoy this equality, or even full human being status, how do you think American society is affected when they immigrate to the US? How long do you imagine it takes to integrate into society and to shed these cultural values? Or is it an Ellis Island about-change?

If you don’t trust this cite, I can’t imagine what would please you…

Here’s an interesting chartof what different colors mean in different cultures.

The master speaks. It’s gone back and forth at different points, but almost certainly is not some kind of genetic preference.

Exactly, rape is rape. But that’s not what the FBI statistics count. They only count forcible rape. So people under 18 whose rapes are charged as child molestation don’t count. People who are intoxicated or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol (whether by their rapist or themselves) to a point that they cannot consent don’t count. People who have their lack of consent ignored by someone they know, classed as acquaintance rape (also known as “date rape”) don’t count.

All of the victims of those sorts of sexual violence are raped. But according the antiquated FBI definition, which hasn’t been updated in 90 years, while our understanding of the rights of all people to bodily autonomy and freedom from violence, they don’t count.

And neither do men. Because the FBI definition of rape states that it is specifically limited to forced vaginal penetration of women.

Lack of evidence is rarely a problem. It often comes down to a skewed sense of whether or not the complaining witness has “credibility” based on a standard that still says that what a woman wears, where she goes and how she acts has a mitigating effect on whether the violence she endures at someone else’s hand matters.

According to the FBI even under their skewed definition, in the last year they calculated it out, fewer than 8% of all rapes reported in the US are “unfounded” which means unsupportable or withdrawn, but not necessarily false – the false number is usually capped around 2%. (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_97/96CRIME/96crime2.pdf) One of the primary reasons for reports being classified as unfounded is that the victim is under the influence of drugs or alcohol when making the report. But studies have shown that alcohol is involved in more than half of all rape incidents, and in 4 out of 5 cases of acquaintance rape. (Cites 1 & 2) Figures from the UK are in alignment. (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf)

And there is a cycle in play. We are told that there are scores of vindictive women making false allegations, and thus, the bar for making a believable allegation is set higher and higher. Thus more allegations viewed as unfounded or “false” over time, and the belief that those allegations were false is reified, and the problem feeds itself, to the extent that there was a Senate subcommittee hearing into multiple large police departments efforts to disregard or downplay rape allegations via the “unfounded” label or charges being reduced to lesser crimes) and a growing number of women who are persistent in their rape claims are being arrested themselves, for making false charges. In another noted example, the police department of New Orleans was recently called out for a de facto policy of just not interviewing named sexual assault suspects and for designing “investigations” in a fashion meant to dismiss allegations as false rather than gathering enough evidence to prove them true in court. That would also include cases like that of Sara Reedy who was raped in the course of a robbery at the minimart where she worked outside of Pittsburgh. Police disbelieved Reedy in part because she froze when the rapist had his gun to her head, rather than trying to reach for an alarm button and decided she made up the story to cover for stealing the money herself. She spent several days in jail.

Given this cycle and the poor rate of arrest and conviction, a rape allegation is a really lousy method of hurting someone. There’s just no traction to the suggestion that any significant number of people would go through the process of a forensic rape exam, the intrusive nature of the questioning given a rape victim and the approbation that attaches, especially when the victim is disbelieved, when so little happens in most cases. (See: this breakdown.) The practices of the criminal justice system, in the face of rape allegations, empower rapists by discouraging victims of sexual violence from reporting the crimes against them.

Examples? Gladly. I could do this all night.

[ul]
[li]Tight jeans = no rape is a bad old idea that keeps coming back. 1999 in Italy and 2008 in Korea and 2010 in Australia[/li][li]Judge: Lesbians should face “corrective” rape to cure them (Correction: it was Tennessee, not North Carolina.) (Related: Corrective rape unchecked epidemic in South Africa.[/li][li]Toronto crime prevention officer: “Don’t dress like a slut”. (This has spawned a grassroots global protest movement entitled “Slutwalk”.)[/li][li]Winnepeg judge: You wore a tube top, high heels and makeup and flirted? You weren’t raped. Doesn’t matter if you said no. Even if you have scars.[/li][li]Idaho GOP legislator: Pregnancies resulting from rape are a sign of the hand of God at work an echo of the once & future GOP Senate candidate from Nevada who said that it’s God’s plan (plus that Justin Beiber kid, who’s more influential than either).[/li][li]The U.S. military’s “secret” shame: a shocking number of male-on-male sexual assaults (remember, they’re not officially rape because that can only happen to women).[/li][li]Not as secret or as shameful as 41% of female army troops reporting sexual assault, 29% reporting rape at the hands of male soldiers. That number is 18.9% in the Air Force. A woman on active duty in the U.S. military is more likely to be raped than hurt or killed in the line of duty, by orders of magnitude. This perpetuates largely because punishment rarely occurs.[/li][li]Less than a month ago, Irish police “joked” about raping several female protestors while they were in custody. They were recorded while doing so, but the situation is still “under investigation.”[/li][/ul]
Is that enough examples? Because I’ve got more than a dozen more. And that’s what people mean when they talk about the frequently Dope-dismissed concept of “rape culture.” And I can understand why the idea is so distressing. Those of us who talk and write about this topic are frequently rebuffed with the “argument” that we’re just being hysterical and that rape jokes (and misuse of the word) and very problematic depictions of women, women’s sexuality and rape in popular culture and the actual statistics and stories of how rape is handled in the criminal justice, medical and legislative arenas don’t matter.

We’re told that anti-rape advocacy is a waste of time and fearmongering, because all good people already agree that rape is a terrible thing, and propagate the myth that “good” people, the ones who dress right (not like “sluts” and not in skirts, and not in tight pants but not in loose pants, and not in exercise gear, and not in pajamas) and act right (don’t flirt, but don’t have no interest in men at all, be nice but not too nice, have fun but always always be on your guard) and don’t hang out with the wrong people (like their father, brothers, husbands, their boyfriends, their co-workers, their classmates, their fellow soldiers, their bosses, cab drivers, police officers, priests or doctors and dentists) and go to the wrong places (like jogging paths, parties, bars, swimming pools, gyms, parking garages, elevators, their own workplaces, medical appointments, schools, homes and dorm rooms or anywhere at night) don’t get raped.

But even under the most restricted statistics, more women will be raped than will ever get breast cancer or have heart attacks, the prevention of both of which are talked about every day in every medium and have voluble public campaigns dedicated to prevention and treatment efforts. Yet it’s hysterical and over the top and unnecessary to talk about prevention and appropriate response (treatment) of sexual violence.

You yourself used some of those very words. You said that rape in enthusiastically punished. A six percent conviction rate is not enthusiastic punishment. Police departments refusing to interview suspects is not enthusiastic. While the rate of other violent crimes has receded, the rate of sexual violence has not, and that’s only within the western paradigm of reporting such crimes to police who aggregate numbers, but this problem is clearly greater than that. You didn’t ask for examples of the use of rape as a weapon of war and political manipulation, but it has the exact same oppressive results outside of its organized use. But it’s impolite to talk about that, clearly, and heaven forbid one should be so hysterical about it.

With increased egalitarianism it’s interesting to observe that some things stay, or even seem to get stronger, perhaps pointing to a biological or sexual strategy purpose. Like slut shaming. With increased pornification and widespread acceptance of casual sex and media that seems to try to glorify being slutty you’d think this would diminish if not disappear entirely. Not so. It’s too useful, apparently.

Yeah we are. Besides our predilection for combining violence and sex, or the criminal statistics, or the history of rape and warfare, or child sexual abuse, what about what we say and want? Have you ever been with a group of guys talking about women when no women were around?

We are monsters, which is useful at some times (like defending the tribe or planning a raid for the neighboring village) and not so at other times. The only cure would be genetic engineering, which would probably be discovered by some nerdy male scientist who would never hurt a fly. I suppose that should make us reflect on the dual nature of masculinity, or something.

Yes. And? If you hang out with men who think rape is OK, that means you have a poor selection of friends not that men are all rapists.

No, it reflects on just how deep anti-male bigotry has become among some factions of society. You sound like the mirror image of the fundies who blame women for all the evil in the world. Although I expect you’ll get far better reception for your accusation than someone would who posted that “all women are monsters”.

Or it’s a reflection of how submerged we all are in a culture of sexualized violence. It’s never easy to reflect on the flaws that pervade the atmosphere in which we live, and clearly, some people are absolutely dead set not only against the idea that it could be so, but that anybody would dare argue that it’s so.

Gladly.

I’m not so sure how to put this kindly, but Amanda Marcotte is a misandrist and a raging bigot who completely fails to realize she’s a misandrist and a raging bigot, who instead chooses to blame everything on the fact that she’s a woman and that the patriarchy is out to get and ruin her, effectively “putting her in her place”. Contrary to whatever she might claim, she cares nothing about equality between the sexes. As Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are colorblind (as in the color of the individuals skin makes them blind to the facts), she is genderblind. She’ll readily support gross inequalities (for example, she’s nothing nice to say about men’s right groups), while claiming that holding women to the same standard as a man is inherently misogynistic. Her involvement and blind support of Crystal Gail Mangum in the Duke case, coupled with the numerous disparaging comments she made about the players, the Catholic Church and pretty much anyone she doesn’t agree with (i.e., anyone who doesn’t think like her) makes me want no part in whatever brand on feminism she’s pushing. She’s the very thing she crusades against. Irony really is wasted on the stupid. Jessica Valenti is much the same way, only she likes to overuse profanity, somehow tries to pass of personal anecdotes (and pretty glaring generalizations) as fact and seems to be fixated on the assumption that women only seem to do things because guys want them to, not because they want to (apparently, women are easily manipulated).

I have little desire to listen to one trick ponies whose entire arguments boil down to blaming everything on the patriarchy, insinuate that those who disagree with them are misogynists or make consistent references to “rape culture”/being a “rape enabler” while perpetuating inequalities so long as they benefit women.

One, neither the UCR nor NIBRS reporting systems exclude people who are intoxicated or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol and cannot consent. Two, men are only excluded in the UCR reporting system, not the NIBRS reporting. Three, statutory rape isn’t included because, in cases where no force is used, it’s listed under sex offenses or aggravated assaults.

Link

That’s a pretty warped view you have there. Contrary to whatever it is you might believe, there is no over-arching, grand diabolical scheme to let rapists off the hook because the raped was “asking for it”. The way the system works is that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Therefore, if a man or a woman claims that (s)he was raped, (s)he has to sufficiently prove that the individual (s)he says raped them, actually did. Would you rather a system in which the accused has to prove his or herself innocent against the accusations of another, or suffer the consequences (i.e., imprisonment)? Such a system would be nothing short of a trainwreck.

The stigma of simply being accused of being a rapist is more than enough to damage someone’s reputation for life, even if nothing comes of it.

(And as a side note, I just want to say that the bolded is utterly ridiculous. Again, the criminal justice system does not require one to prove themselves innocent when faced with a charge; rather, the burden of proof is on the accuser. That’s not something which is special to rape, but it uniformly applied to everything.)

It’s a fairly large logical leap from “You shouldn’t abort a child solely because it was conceived in rape” to “Rape is okay”. In fact, it’s an Earth-to-the-moon sized leap.

:rolleyes: That’s utterly ridiculous. Men are bigger, stronger and half the population. If men were so evil the overwhelming majority of women would be raped, and on a regular basis assuming they weren’t killed out of hand. No woman would be so much as able to drive to the shopping mall without being dragged out of her car by mobs of rapists.

Again; you are just demonstrating how popular it is in some subcultures to demonize men, in ways that wouldn’t be tolerated on this board or most other places if they were aimed at women.

Who is this ‘we’ you speak of? I’m pretty sure I’ve never raped anyone, nor have any real desire to do so.