# Against Same Sex and Different Sex Marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783 "2014-01-14T14:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/41 "2014-01-15T16:05:50Z")
Marriage for love is central to the biblical story of Jacob and Rachel. He fell in love and worked for her father for 14 years just to get to marry her. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/42 "2014-01-15T16:45:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > the nuclear family is the single most toxic aspect of modern society and a major impediment to our progressing as a species Ok, I’ll bite. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/43 "2014-01-15T17:02:26Z")
It probably has something to do with radiation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/44 "2014-01-15T19:08:15Z")
I got superpowers after being bitten by a radioactive nuclear family. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/45 "2014-01-15T19:12:32Z")
Well, Republicans hate [comic books](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2008/04/the_caped_crusader.html). And comic books have superheroes in them. And radioactive nuclear family bites create superheroes. So nuclear families are bad. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/46 "2014-01-15T21:11:04Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Marriage for love is central to the biblical story of Jacob and Rachel. He fell in love and worked for her father for 14 years just to get to marry her. The story is functionally equivalent to a boy saving up for a new bike. And getting a hand me down bike (her sister) first. It is not like love did not exist then, or that men didn’t have preferences in mates. But marriage wasn’t about love (or else he wouldn’t have had to go through the whole megillah) but about a financial transaction. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/47 "2014-01-15T21:14:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I got superpowers after being bitten by a radioactive nuclear family. Did you get super I’m Not Touching You abilities and fractional children? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/48 "2014-01-15T23:10:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In the long run, I believe that all forms of marriage should be abolished, because the nuclear family is the single most toxic aspect of modern society and a major impediment to our progressing as a species. 35 years travelling on a commuter train and obliged to follow some bullshit hierarchy line becasue you’re the ‘breadwinner’ is no joke. Fuck that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/49 "2014-01-16T09:12:11Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Ok, I’ll bite. The nuclear family is by and large the instrument through which racism and sexism, religion and other magical thinking, and other counterproductive modes of thought are spread from one generation to the next, and additionally it is the source of nepotism and class division that allows certain people to invariably end up in positions of wealth or prestige regardless of their inherent skills or talents, while millions of other people are never able to fully exploit their gifts because they were born into a family that couldn’t afford to send them to a good school. I’ve discussed this in previous threads, but my belief is that the ideal society would be one in which children are permanently separated from their parents at birth, raised in state-operated facilities by licensed professionals, and as adults undergo training and placement in professions that best befit their individual skills and aspirations. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/50 "2014-01-16T18:08:45Z")
Why would anyone have children under those conditions unless, y’know, it was their Duty to the Party or something. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/51 "2014-01-16T18:17:19Z")
Does it matter what marriage is for? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/52 "2014-01-17T00:03:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ve discussed this in previous threads, but my belief is that the ideal society would be one in which children are permanently separated from their parents at birth, raised in state-operated facilities by licensed professionals, and as adults undergo training and placement in professions that best befit their individual skills and aspirations. And if the state operating the facilities was Alabama in 1962 (or maybe today) do you think kids would come out without either racism or religion? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/53 "2014-01-17T00:42:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ve discussed this in previous threads, but my belief is that the ideal society would be one in which children are permanently separated from their parents at birth, raised in state-operated facilities by licensed professionals, and as adults undergo training and placement in professions that best befit their individual skills and aspirations. Sounds like a Brave, New World! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/54 "2014-01-17T02:02:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And if the state operating the facilities was Alabama in 1962 (or maybe today) do you think kids would come out without either racism or religion? Fortunately, the chances of it being 1962 any time soon are slim. Besides, the reason places like "Alabama in 1962 exist to begin with is specifically _because_ people like people from Alabama in 1962 are allowed to raise children and indoctrinate them to believe in nonsense. Where do you think kids learn that one race is better than the other? Not at school. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/55 "2014-01-18T06:53:33Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The problem with the debate about Same SexMarriage is that we are not sure what marriage is really for. Until a century ago, marriage was a relationship between an economically active man and a child rearing women with little place in the working world. It protected the position of all to a certain extent and was relevant to the time- treating each couple/family as a single economic unit and hoping to find security for children. > > Move forward to the present day and most women in Western society are economically active and they vote, work and socialize more like men; childcare is shared to a certain extent, and marriage frequently fail to last trhrough the offspring’s childhood. > > Perhaps we should redefine marriage as a social agreement (previously often consecrated by religious bodies but also by the state) that is non-economic- each person retains their Tax status and no special exceptions ride on marriage or not. > > Then the state can define a further status- Parents- who need to be regulated in the interests of the children whether the parents are married or not. Exceptions to tax laws and so on become dependent on child care relationships, not romantic ones. > > If two men or two women declare there parentage for a child via adoption or other means, they become parents with tax breaks and other privileges. This is entirely governed by the state and the churches have no input whatsoever. Are you in the US? Because in the US, the legal institution of marriage has nothing to do with religious bodies. Most US states require some type of witnessed ceremony to kick off a marriage (in addition to a number of other requirements), and for historical and convenience reasons, they allow a religious ceremony to fulfill that requirement. But the government does not care at all whether or not your church thinks you have a valid marriage. The legal institution of marriage has nothing to do with any religious body. And the legal institution of marriage, as pointed upthread, is basically a default contract. People pair up, and they mix property. Or they get loans together. Or they get in a fight over their property. Or someone gets sick and needs someone to make decisions for them. Or someone dies without leaving a will. The legal institution of marriage creates a default set of rules on how to deal with all these situations. You’re free to contract around them (to a certain extent) using pre- or post-nuptial agreements. If you don’t think married people should get benefits or special tax status, that might be an interesting debate. But even if you eliminated that, there are still a whole bunch of other issues that the legal institution of marriage deals with. ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/56 "2014-11-06T14:16:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The problem with the debate about Same SexMarriage is that we are not sure what marriage is really for. Until a century ago, marriage was a relationship between an economically active man and a child rearing women with little place in the working world. It protected the position of all to a certain extent and was relevant to the time- treating each couple/family as a single economic unit and hoping to find security for children. > > Move forward to the present day and most women in Western society are economically active and they vote, work and socialize more like men; childcare is shared to a certain extent, and marriage frequently fail to last trhrough the offspring’s childhood. > > Perhaps we should redefine marriage as a social agreement (previously often consecrated by religious bodies but also by the state) that is non-economic- each person retains their Tax status and no special exceptions ride on marriage or not. > > Then the state can define a further status- Parents- who need to be regulated in the interests of the children whether the parents are married or not. Exceptions to tax laws and so on become dependent on child care relationships, not romantic ones. > > If two men or two women declare there parentage for a child via adoption or other means, they become parents with tax breaks and other privileges. This is entirely governed by the state and the churches have no input whatsoever. Good idea 🙂 🙂 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/57 "2014-11-06T14:19:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What problem are you trying to solve? Because if you think a simple “definition change” is going to make anti-SSM suddenly pro, I think you don’t understand why people are anti in the first place. Why is it that people like to insult each other on these blogs? 😕😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/58 "2014-11-06T14:20:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Fortunately, the chances of it being 1962 any time soon are slim. > > Besides, the reason places like "Alabama in 1962 exist to begin with is specifically _because_ people like people from Alabama in 1962 are allowed to raise children and indoctrinate them to believe in nonsense. Where do you think kids learn that one race is better than the other? Not at school. Gay is not the new black. ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/59 "2014-11-06T14:22:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Does it matter what marriage is for? Does it matter if anyone has sex at all. Does it matter when. Does it matter why. Does it matter if I use a question mark after my questions? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/60 "2014-11-06T15:10:34Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Does it matter if anyone has sex at all. Does it matter when. Does it matter why. Yes! If nobody had sex, our species would fail to propagate and go extinct. Having sex with children is damaging for the children and morally repugnant as they lack thee intellectual capacity to offer informed consent. And the why matters to the degree that if one side is doing it for reasons other than “I want to”, it’s rape and should be prosecuted as such. > [@](#): > > Does it matter if I use a question mark after my questions? Yes, because not placing a question mark after them is incorrect grammar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783.md?page=4)