# Against Same Sex and Different Sex Marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783 "2014-01-14T14:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/61 "2014-11-06T15:26:57Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m also not sure what the OP means about defining an additional status as parents. Isn’t that already done? There’s no requirement that the mother and father be legally married. I think he meant that the only status the state should care about (for the purpose of giving tax breaks, etc…) is the status of parent. Parent-child becoming the only “family unit” that matters, legally. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/62 "2014-11-06T15:30:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Does it matter what marriage is for? It surely does if you want to argue that the state should recognize it. “I want a special state recognition/special rights/special exemptions for the kind of association I’m involved in” “What is it for?” “Does it matter?”. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/63 "2014-11-06T15:34:08Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Why is it that people like to insult each other on these blogs? 😕😕😕 Arguing that marriage is an outdated concept is considered at a very least as a strong hint that you’re homophobic, on this board, apparently(\*). Hence the strong reactions. (\*) The reasonning being that you probably want to get rid of marriage because now gays can have it, and you prefer to spoil it for everybody rather than let them have a taste of it. That’s supposed to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/64 "2014-11-06T15:39:49Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Why is it that people like to insult each other on these blogs? I didn’t see the insult there. Disagreeing with somebody is not an insult, except in Bizarro World, aka apparently the USA in 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/65 "2014-11-06T15:40:03Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Why is it that people like to insult each other on these blogs? 😕😕😕 Once again-this is a message board, not a blog. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/66 "2014-11-06T18:47:24Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Does it matter if anyone has sex at all. Does it matter when. Does it matter why. > Does it matter if I use a question mark after my questions? And how ‘bout that Jim Brown? He was really somethin’, wasn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/67 "2014-11-06T18:50:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In the long run, I believe that all forms of marriage should be abolished, because **the nuclear family is the single most toxic aspect of modern society** Really. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/68 "2014-11-06T18:56:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Really. 😕 _Nuclear_, _toxic_-get it? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/69 "2014-11-06T18:58:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In the long run, I believe that all forms of marriage should be abolished, because **the nuclear family is the single most toxic aspect of modern society** > [@Velocity](#): > > Really. 😕 Yes; in **Smapti** Land, it leads to the formation of emotional bonds, which in turn lead to the likelihood that an individual might put himself at risk of death for the sake of saving the life of his own offspring or sexual partner. And death is the worst possible thing that can happen to anyone. Everyone has a basic biological duty to remain alive by any means necessary until they achieve the age of twenty-nine years, three hundred sixty-four days, at which time they proceed to the Carousel, where they are lifted up into eternal, uhhh, _living_. . . ness. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/70 "2014-11-06T19:28:43Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Does it matter if anyone has sex at all. Does it matter when. Does it matter why. > Does it matter if I use a question mark after my questions? What does sex have to do with marriage? I do not recall any questions about sexual behaviour when The Wife and I got a marriage license, and no Marriage Police are peeking in our windows. Of course, things may have changed in the thirty years, I wouldn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/71 "2014-11-06T21:06:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once again-this is a message board, not a blog. 🙂 🙂 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/72 "2014-11-06T21:19:38Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And how ‘bout that Jim Brown? He was really somethin’, wasn’t he? I read this, twice, as John Brown. And it was weird. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/73 "2014-11-06T21:39:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Until a century ago, marriage was a relationship between an economically active man and a child rearing women with little place in the working world. Bullshit. In ye olden days, women worked - and worked _hard_. Staying home, doing nothin’ but raising the kids? A relatively recent luxury. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/74 "2014-11-07T05:57:34Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Bullshit. In ye olden days, women worked - and worked _hard_. Staying home, doing nothin’ but raising the kids? A relatively recent luxury. Read the actual words I used which do not imply that women did not work at home, just that few had formal ‘jobs’ outside the home- we are talking middle ages to nineteenth century here. Women with children (one of the prime purposes of marriage) usually worked at home in their child bearing years. This could include spinning, weaving etc with home based work. ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/75 "2014-11-07T06:57:53Z")
Hang on. Are they going to abolish marriage in an independent Scotland or something? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/76 "2014-11-10T15:57:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Read the actual words I used which do not imply that women did not work at home, just that few had formal ‘jobs’ outside the home- we are talking middle ages to nineteenth century here. Women with children (one of the prime purposes of marriage) usually worked at home in their child bearing years. This could include spinning, weaving etc with home based work. Few _people_ - women _or_ men - had “formal ‘jobs’ outside the home” from the Middle Ages and until the Industrial Revolution. And when the husband is tilling the soil, and the woman is right beside him tilling the very same soil, that’s not a situation where the husband is “economically active” while the wife has “little place in the working world.” ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/77 "2014-11-10T16:11:13Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Few _people_ - women _or_ men - had “formal ‘jobs’ outside the home” from the Middle Ages and until the Industrial Revolution. And when the husband is tilling the soil, and the woman is right beside him tilling the very same soil, that’s not a situation where the husband is “economically active” while the wife has “little place in the working world.” While women had children they rarely worked outside the home. Women tended to produce children every other year from marriage to menopause. The feudal system saw men working for the estate and mothers working at home. Under industrialisation women might work part time at home spinning or weaving while child rearing. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/78 "2014-11-10T16:43:52Z")
We know that in 14th century Paris, “[there were women barbers, apothecaries, armorers, shipwrights, tailors and spurriers](http://sandradodd.com/sca/womenandwork),” as well as female “[masons, carpenters, makers of doors and diggers of gravel](http://sandradodd.com/sca/womenandwork).” We also know that English women were involved in “[stone-picking, weeding, haymaking and turnip-hoeing](http://books.google.dk/books?id=gJEWvlqlEoIC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=women+reaping+and+hay+making&source=bl&ots=eDiU6Z1csg&sig=Czd-Wl2olWbmjqwMBY7vjcc2u6E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l-dgVMfiEJTaavOUgagL&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=women%20reaping%20and%20hay%20making&f=false)” as well as “[reaping](http://books.google.dk/books?id=gJEWvlqlEoIC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=women+reaping+and+hay+making&source=bl&ots=eDiU6Z1csg&sig=Czd-Wl2olWbmjqwMBY7vjcc2u6E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l-dgVMfiEJTaavOUgagL&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=women%20reaping%20and%20hay%20making&f=false),” and that well into the 18th century, English women involved in reaping “[were paid the same rates for the job as men, and sometimes even higher rates.](http://books.google.dk/books?id=9Pmqa0K6h8QC&pg=PT60&lpg=PT60&dq=women+reaping+and+hay+making&source=bl&ots=hvec9yER_J&sig=yeHZgykfOb5v7t6frzfJrANOSqU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l-dgVMfiEJTaavOUgagL&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=women%20reaping%20and%20hay%20making&f=false)” That writer concludes that “[contemporary evidence suggests that women there [in northern England] continued to do much the same work, and that no marked sexual division of labour revealed itself before the end of the century.](http://books.google.dk/books?id=9Pmqa0K6h8QC&pg=PT60&lpg=PT60&dq=women+reaping+and+hay+making&source=bl&ots=hvec9yER_J&sig=yeHZgykfOb5v7t6frzfJrANOSqU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l-dgVMfiEJTaavOUgagL&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=women%20reaping%20and%20hay%20making&f=false)” So, once again, when you claim that > [@](#): > > Until a century ago, marriage was a relationship between an economically active man and a child rearing women with little place in the working world the facts are simply not on your side. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/79 "2014-11-11T00:28:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And how ‘bout that Jim Brown? He was really somethin’, wasn’t he? > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I read this, twice, as John Brown. And it was weird. By way of clarification, I posted that because the only post Mr. Jones ever made that WASN’T in some way about how we must keep marriage out of the hands of the people who have buttsecks (even if it meant abolishing state recognition of it) was about how Jim Brown was the greatest football player in the NFL, while he was playing. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783/80 "2014-11-11T00:41:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ve discussed this in previous threads, but my belief is that the ideal society would be one in which children are permanently separated from their parents at birth, raised in state-operated facilities by licensed professionals, and as adults undergo training and placement in professions that best befit their individual skills and aspirations. My belief is that every person should take a moment and consider whether their deeply held philosophical convictions are directly lifted from the plot of a mediocre Young Adult novel, and if so, to reconsider them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-same-sex-and-different-sex-marriage/678783.md?page=5)