# Against the Nazis **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 1, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902 "2009-11-01T01:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/121 "2009-11-04T14:03:09Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Im with the op 100% > > It doesn’t matter what the reason is for having a swastika tatoo I’d gladly beat the fuck out of somebody for it. They know what it stands for they know it’s history and they wear it proudly. Fuck that! I would lay 10:1 odds that if you saw a random biker with a nazi tattoo you wouldn’t say a word. If you did, you’d be the one getting either arrested or the beatdown of your life. Another internet tough guy. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/122 "2009-11-04T14:53:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You do realize that nothing you’ve said here in any way disagrees with what **Argent Towers** posted, right? I’m not so sure. I understood **Argent Towers** to be arguing that swastika tattoos are worn by bikers and the like as a form of non-specific intimidation, and are simply posturing and a statement of how tough the swastika-wearer is. Perhaps I misunderstood. What I was saying was that the intent of someone with a swastika tattoo is more specific than that. It’s an intentional statement of racial hatred, and an explicit threat. And as to the Hell’s Angels possibly having once had black and Hispanic members, our local chapter doesn’t, and non-whites are most definitely not welcome around their clubhouse. They are racist, and their behaviour shows that the swastika tattoos are more than simply some kind of tough-guy statement. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/123 "2009-11-04T19:31:07Z")
Also, important note: there’s a difference between “skinheads” (that is, neo-Nazi sympathizers) and [skinheads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinheads). ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/124 "2009-11-04T19:52:18Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > I would lay 10:1 odds that if you saw a random biker with a nazi tattoo you wouldn’t say a word. If you did, you’d be the one getting either arrested or the beatdown of your life. > > Another internet tough guy. Which illustrates the purpose of the swastika tattoo. To wear it openly is to say, “you think you can fuck with me?” It’s saying, “I dare you to challenge me.” And given that the vast majority of people do _not_ have the guts to back up their boastful proclamations that they would love to beat the shit out of anyone wearing a swastika, it serves its purpose effectively. The biker sees people around him looking at the swastika and walking by without saying a word - silently deferring to his aggressive posture, because he knows that almost everyone who sees the tattoo _would_ like to kick his ass. But they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/125 "2009-11-04T20:13:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Which illustrates the purpose of the swastika tattoo. To wear it openly is to say, “you think you can fuck with me?” It’s saying, “I dare you to challenge me.” And given that the vast majority of people do _not_ have the guts to back up their boastful proclamations that they would love to beat the shit out of anyone wearing a swastika, it serves its purpose effectively. The biker sees people around him looking at the swastika and walking by without saying a word - silently deferring to his aggressive posture, because he knows that almost everyone who sees the tattoo _would_ like to kick his ass. But they don’t. Oh, sometimes they do. Two young bikers with swastika tattoos getting booted roughly out of a Hank III show by a couple of bouncers was a beauty to behold. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/126 "2009-11-04T20:19:09Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Scylla: You are a coward. Scylla: You are a liar. This looks very familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/127 "2009-11-04T21:01:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The portion in bold seems to indicate that you _do_ allow for normal people to have thoughts of killing someone. It’s just got to be justified by the fact that they “deserve it”. To a 13-year-old boy, there is no one more deserving of death than those “evil Nazis.” If you were talking about people forcing Jews into cattle cars and taking them to be gassed then sure, but you’re talking about people displaying a _symbol_ of those people. Even at 13 notions of killing somebody for _displaying a symbol_ rather than an _action_ is not healthy. The rebel flag is a symbol of hate to some people and I understand why many find it objectionable, but to fantasize about playing Sherman and burning their trailer to teach them a lesson is a bit extreme. I hate Fred Phelps- wouldn’t mind punching him or his family members holding up signs at funerals in the face- but I seriously doubt I’d kill him given the opportunity nor do I fantasize about it. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/128 "2009-11-04T21:17:11Z")
I agree with **Argent Towers** , for what it’s worth - a swastika tattoo is more likely on some people not to be a symbol specifically of Nazi ideology. It doesn’t matter, though, because it’s still a handy marker for “oh, look, an asshole”. And **lissener** , you once went fucking crazy on my ass for no reason whatsoever, and I only let octopodes do that without buying me dinner first. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/129 "2009-11-04T21:30:15Z")
Maybe I am not being fair, but I cannot picture most outlaw bikers as being able to coherently discuss the differences between German and Italian facism and their economic or social effects. I always assumed that a lot of these guys wear these symbols because they want to pick the most instantly recognisable tough-guy symbol (in the U.S., the black SS Uniforms and the Wehrmacht’s reputation on the whole still has the aura of “ass-kickin MoFo’s”) coupled with a “whatcha gonna do about it, pussy?” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/130 "2009-11-04T21:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > but to fantasize about playing Sherman and burning their trailer to teach them a lesson is a bit extreme. _snerk_ ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/131 "2009-11-04T21:39:45Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Imagine that you dye your hair blue and wearing a Star Trek uniform with a tutu into public: are you probably going to be more upset if somebody makes a comment or if somebody just seems to neither notice nor care? [Hijack] Back in the day, I became very close to a rebellious young goth. One more than one occasion, he ranted about the fact that every where he went in Austin, people stared and gawked. Unlike most of Texas, Austin is notorious for its liberal attitide. Finally I looked at him and said “Andrew, if you didn’t slather yourself with white pancake make-up and black eyeliner and if you didn’t insist on wearing a black knit sarong, Doc Martins, and tights, you probably wouldn’t have that problem.” Ah, youth. [/Hijack over] ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/132 "2009-11-04T22:34:38Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Maybe I am not being fair, but I cannot picture most outlaw bikers as being able to coherently discuss the differences between German and Italian facism and their economic or social effects. > > I always assumed that a lot of these guys wear these symbols because they want to pick the most instantly recognisable tough-guy symbol (in the U.S., the black SS Uniforms and the Wehrmacht’s reputation on the whole still has the aura of “ass-kickin MoFo’s”) coupled with a “whatcha gonna do about it, pussy?” attitude. There you go. It’s good to know that some people here understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/133 "2009-11-04T23:13:52Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > to fantasize about playing Sherman and burning their trailer If you ever do fantasize that one, fantasize me as Mr. Peabody. Please? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/134 "2009-11-05T04:07:30Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I agree with **Argent Towers** , for what it’s worth - a swastika tattoo is more likely on some people not to be a symbol specifically of Nazi ideology. It doesn’t matter, though, because it’s still a handy marker for “oh, look, an asshole”. > > And **lissener** , you once went fucking crazy on my ass for no reason whatsoever, and I only let octopodes do that without buying me dinner first. K well THAT requires a cite. In any case, there’s never been any argument that I sometimes lose my temper. I took issue with Scylla stating unequivocally that that I express irrational rage at “everybody who disagrees with me.” And since 90%+ of my exchanges on this board are friendly disagreements, that required being called on. His “proof” that this was true–the fact that I got angry at all–well, which is it? The implication is that I’m the only person here who’s not allowed ever to get angry; any one instance, no matter what the cause, is “proof” to Scylla that I attack “everybody I disagree with.” There’s a pretty wide discrepancy there. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/135 "2009-11-05T04:11:44Z")
I see what you mean **toe jam**. Everyone is free to believe and express themselves how they feel. But I mean really they’re trying to be neo-nazi’s and that’s wrong. There’s no getting around that. Furthermore, it’s deeply insulting to promote and be proud of something like that. So no, I guess I can’t say they _deserve_ it cause they really didn’t do anything wrong, but am I really just like them if I was violent with them? and **bri1600bv** your entitled to your opinion, and maybe you’re right, but you don’t know me. Moreso, I hate it when people think these guys are tough. They get tatoos, drive harleys, drink all the time, and are generally fat and out of shape. The only thing they have is an attitude and usually strength in numbers. In a fair fight, they ain’t shit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/136 "2009-11-05T04:20:53Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > If you ever do fantasize that one, fantasize me as Mr. Peabody. Please? Quiet, you. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/137 "2009-11-05T04:56:07Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > I see what you mean **toe jam**. Everyone is free to believe and express themselves how they feel. But I mean really they’re trying to be neo-nazi’s and that’s wrong. There’s no getting around that. Furthermore, it’s deeply insulting to promote and be proud of something like that. So no, I guess I can’t say they _deserve_ it cause they really didn’t do anything wrong, but am I really just like them if I was violent with them? If it helps, I understand your reasoning and what you feel. I certainly don’t support them myself, and I disagree with Nazi’s quite a bit (especially since that symbol was/is a symbol of Hinduism and various other Eastern religions before they chose to pervert it for their own tastes). Totally not cool. But to paraphrase a great man- _an eye for an eye leaves two people blind_. Though I suspect if you go around beating up and killing Nazis without provocation, many people would easily sympathize and support you. However, we do have laws for a reason, and no matter how much you were supported, I think in the end, a court of law would probably find you just as guilty of killing a fellow human being regardless of your motivation to do so. Sort of like the TV show _Dexter_. People enjoy rooting for the “bad guy” in that case, because the protagonist of that show is a serial killer who goes around executing only those who hurt others. Yet, if you showed his actions to an actual court of law or people who saw the murders, they’d be horrified at the vigilantism being displayed there. But yeah, don’t worry, I don’t think you’re a Nazi, but I was just trying to make a point. Stay Cool, **Scotty Mo.** ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/138 "2009-11-05T07:21:05Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > But to paraphrase a great man- _an eye for an eye leaves two people blind_. Actually, it just leaves two people without any depth perception. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/139 "2009-11-05T10:59:33Z")
What if they’re both pirates? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902/140 "2009-11-05T15:10:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > If you were talking about people forcing Jews into cattle cars and taking them to be gassed then sure, but you’re talking about people displaying a _symbol_ of those people. Even at 13 notions of killing somebody for _displaying a symbol_ rather than an _action_ is not healthy. > > The rebel flag is a symbol of hate to some people and I understand why many find it objectionable, but to fantasize about playing Sherman and burning their trailer to teach them a lesson is a bit extreme. I hate Fred Phelps- wouldn’t mind punching him or his family members holding up signs at funerals in the face- but I seriously doubt I’d kill him given the opportunity nor do I fantasize about it. Perhaps, but, for an Aspie, perfect normal. I don’t expect he understands the difference, or he would have used the term_neo_-Nazi. Of course, I’m all about giving people the benefit of the doubt, which seems to rarer and rarer around here. There seems to be an attitude of paranoia that happens every time someone doesn’t quite fit in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-the-nazis/515902.md?page=8)