# Against Trump specifically, Sanders is the better Dem candidate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 4, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881 "2016-03-04T00:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/61 "2016-03-04T21:24:33Z")
I haven’t read your link yet, but I think against Trump, Clinton could pull from anti-racist Republicans that are OK with corruption, while Sanders would pull idealistic “integrity” voters if they’re OK with taxes. But if the GOP united behind Cruz? In a Cruz vs. Clinton matchup, I’m afraid Cruz would obliterate Clinton, and I hate Ted Cruz personally. Sanders vs. Cruz would be interesting. Sanders vs. Trump might just be a realignment year. (And yeah, I sort of want it to be Sanders vs. Trump, in a way. Shake up the two-party system!) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/62 "2016-03-04T21:54:34Z")
OK, read the link, and I actually agree. Clinton is too easy to smear. And, no, Hillary fen, “baked in” isn’t a magic word to make her negatives go away. (Has that stupid phrase appeared in this thread yet? I’ve not checked.) Even someone as beloved as Bill Cosby could become hated. You really think someone whose right had has ties to “radical Islam” (sorry, Huma), and who changed position on socialized medicine because of where the money was, and sent weapons to countries that donated to her husband’s foundation, can’t lose what little hope she has? The kids and the idealists have seen Bernie; many of them know Danes, Swedes, Australians, & Canadians from online. Can you even keep them down on the neoliberal farm once they’ve seen socialdem Paree? The voter who’s not typically Democratic-leaning but would consider a Democrat is probably in one of two categories: drawn to white elites like Trump, or already considers her a criminal (my mom’s word). The Democrats have a smart play here. Let’s hope they take it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/63 "2016-03-04T22:03:35Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > This is what I meant about Sanders being an unknown quantity in a general election. I don’t know his career well enough to know what the GOP will unearth. I doubt anyone on this board does. The Pubbies will find what they need and make up the rest. He’s soft on terrorism. He thinks the US should apologize for trying to lead the world. He wants to raise taxes on ordinary people in order to turn the US into Switzerland. He spends his time in the Senate sponsoring bills nobody pays attention to. He wants to tell you what doctor you can see and what treatments the doctor can give you. He wants you to trust him because he thinks he knows better than you. He doesn’t have the guts to stand up to Russia or China. He’s a pacifist (read: weakling). He has a government program for everything and all of it is going to come out of your pocket despite what he says about soaking the rich, and by the way, don’t bother trying to start a business since President Bernie will nab every dollar you make as soon as you make it. Sanders is jealous of rich and successful people and wants to grind them down, like all his liberal supporters do. And that’s just the fairly normal and predictable shit I’m thinking up sitting here on my couch. In other words, he’s a “Jewish liberal socialist Nazi from New York who hates America, capitalism, Jesus Christ, and success.” _Just like every liberal Democrat ever._ Let them cry “Communist.” I say, “Yeah, and?” ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/64 "2016-03-04T22:12:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/jul/17/did-hillary-clinton-ask-be-relieved-rapist/) has analyzed it. > > Basically Hillary was working at a legal aid clinic, an indigent man was accused of raping a 12 year old girl. Hillary was assigned the case by a judge, she later indicated she didn’t want to work the case or feel comfortable doing so, but she either didn’t ask the judge to be removed because she didn’t think he’d remove her, or she asked and wasn’t removed. > > Either way, if only the innocent deserve attorneys then very few people would have legal representation in criminal trials. I strongly agree with her words on this, > > “If we don’t like a defendant, we still have a duty to represent them and advocate on their behalf,” she added." > > The victim has years later been part of some attacks on Hillary, saying Hillary worked to discredit her. But as terrible as that must have been for the victim–that is the unfortunate job and ethical responsibility of a defense attorney in a criminal trial, to attempt to pick apart the prosecution’s case and its witnesses. I frankly would like a lucid argument as to why that is an unethical action. Even if I have a lucid argument, I feel like I wouldn’t be able to present it well enough. I know it sounds as if I’m giving up now that I’m being pressed to come up with arguments. I mean… I’ll give it my best shot: I don’t like the manner in which she discussing the case. People talk about crying being a weakness, but sometimes it’s involuntary. Of course people would be extra critical of Hilary if she were to shed a tear because she’s a woman. I just think there’s a lack of a ‘human’ connect. Perhaps I’m not doing a good job in finding the right words to use, (like “ethical”,) in describing my disliking Hilary. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/65 "2016-03-04T22:12:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Reading some of this thread (Bernie voters might just stay home! Oh no!) makes me wonder if some people think that the Dems should have nominated Ralph Nader in 2000, because Gore lost votes for not being liberal enough. No, the Democrats should have nominated Ralph Nader (and Ralph Nader should have run in the Democrat primary) because Ralph Nader is a _national hero._ Now, that doesn’t apply to Bernie. But celebrity counts for something, and celebrity outside the political system sometimes counts for more. When we can see what you are outside the political process, we can decide if we like you. Hillary, outside politics, is a creepy corporate lawyer. Trump, outside politics, is a joke. Bernie, outside politics, is an idealistic patriot with kooky utopian dreams. There is a base for each of these, but I suspect none of them measures up in breadth of appeal to a Nader, an Eisenhower, or even a Herbert Hoover. It’s a shame Nader approached electoral politics in a deluded way. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/66 "2016-03-04T22:22:17Z")
I’m clearly not good at this stuff. I will tell you that I will try to keep a more open mind about Hil-Dawg. I’m literally exhausted talking politics, and I’m not writing the best responses. There is one thing I’m sure about though. There are people who won’t Hilary. I honestly think I’m about to fall asleep, I’ve been on Straight Dope all day. You don’t have to convince me for voting for Hilary if she wins the primary. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/67 "2016-03-04T22:58:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > This. Hillary sat through a 5 hour grilling by a House committee, fending off hours of nonsense attacks. She is tough and unflappable. > > Hillary is also a mediocre candidate, IMHO – she’s a much better office manager. But she has no special vulnerability to this insecure billionaire. Well said. And I think it’s also interesting to note [how starkly they differ](https://twitter.com/SlackerInc/status/705886226969038849) in terms of how acceptable they are to those within their parties. Note that Bernie is somewhere in between, although actually a little closer to Drumpf than to Clinton. Sorry, Bernie, Democrats just aren’t that into you. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/68 "2016-03-04T23:49:27Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I fear that many Americans are not smart enough to hear a rebuttal to “socialist socialist socialist!”. That fight was lost a long time ago. To those who care enough to actively oppose socialism, all Democrats are socialists, and even the Clintons are socialists pretending to be moderate to trick us. So Trump would only discouraging those who like Bernie but are afraid–what? That he’s unelectable? So what? Are they going to vote third-party then? Vote for a fascist? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/69 "2016-03-04T23:53:56Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > Uh, seriously? > > The whole key to Sanders’ appeal is that he _doesn’t_ compromise. The primary reason Sanderites hate Clinton is for the compromises she’s made to get where she is, which in their eyes equates to someone without integrity. > > For real, can someone provide a cite illustrating Sanders’ great facility for compromise and winning over people with views opposed to his? No, you misunderstand. The difference is that Sanders works within the legislative system, while Hillary goes behind closed doors to try to make a deal, not with Congressmen, but with rich “stakeholders”–which then falls apart in the light of day. Hillary thinks she’s smarter than the constitutional system, and can make a deal behind the scenes. So far she’s not, and she can’t. That’s why she’s a bad leader. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/70 "2016-03-04T23:57:08Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’d like to know what, specifically. Everyone says Hillary has ethical issues but I never see any of them well documented or explained. Do I need to cut and paste all the Madison Guaranty stuff, and the Clinton Foundation stuff? I guess I should have done this already. Yes, it’s there; yes, it’s ethically dubious; no, it’s not the emails (which are an appetizer for what’s coming if she’s nominated); yes, some of it is very eyebrow-raising. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/71 "2016-03-05T00:24:41Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So Trump would only discouraging those who like Bernie but are afraid–what? That he’s unelectable? So what? Are they going to vote third-party then? Vote for a fascist? In some of the very threads you’ve posted in, there have been plenty of posts about people who intend to do both of these (though not at the same time, obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/72 "2016-03-05T01:01:50Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > No, the Democrats should have nominated Ralph Nader (and Ralph Nader should have run in the Democrat primary) because Ralph Nader is a _national hero._ National hero? That’s the criteria? Because he wrote a book about a lousy car a few decades earlier? Joe DiMaggio was a national hero, but that doesn’t mean that people would have elected him president 30 years after his most notable achievement, which was banging Marilyn Monroe. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/73 "2016-03-05T02:26:51Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I’m clearly not good at this stuff. > > I will tell you that I will try to keep a more open mind about Hil-Dawg. I’m literally exhausted talking politics, and I’m not writing the best responses. There is one thing I’m sure about though. There are people who won’t Hilary. Considering how important it is that there never again be a Republican president, you really ought to make at least a half-hearted effort to persuade such people, when you encounter them, to do as you plan to, hold their noses, and pull the lever for her. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/74 "2016-03-05T02:41:09Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Considering how important it is that there never again be a Republican president, you really ought to make at least a half-hearted effort to persuade such people, when you encounter them, to do as you plan to, hold their noses, and pull the lever for her. I’m having a difficult time understanding what you’re saying. I do try to sway people I know, most won’t have any of it, and I end up on the defensive for Hilary. Edit. That’s one of the reason’s I’m sick of this… I’ve been on FB trying to pimp Hilary in the tragic event that Bernie doesn’t win. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/75 "2016-03-05T03:05:18Z")
It’s not easy when you’re someone who’s trying to make an educated decision, and you’re trying to balance the believable with the bullshit. I think Bernie is a “we” person, as he advertises himself to be. I think Hilary is playing a game. It’s not as if I can verify all the charges made against Hilary, or would even expect to be able to. People here are smart, and can craft an argument… but I can only assume that people who challenge me might have their own agenda. I value these boards a great deal. I try to always keep an open mind. I just hear a lot of noise from both sides. I don’t always fully understand things, but I’m almost positive she’s done things that she knew was wrong… and has probably crossed lines I would find objectionable. Of course, there’s also the fact that she voted for the Iraq war, she was late with the LGBT support… which she even claims wasn’t because of politics, and just ‘couldn’t at the time’. But that’s been talked about in great length. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/76 "2016-03-05T03:34:23Z")
How late does Hillary have to be when she was the first- first lady to walk in a gay pride parade in New York in 2000? How anti-union is she when she has the endorsement of 20 of the strongest unions in the country? How cozy is she to Wall street when she’s voted with Sanders and Elizabeth Warren 93% of the time and therefore considered a hard core liberal in the Senate? The reason the Republicans have a rigid on for her is exactly because she’s a liberal who’s been around a long time, and is the most recognized woman in the world. Bernie doesn’t want to compromise. Admirable, but how do you work with Ted Cruz? In Bernie’s case you don’t. You stay an independent. The smears and innuendo against Hillary has, for a long time been Republican talking points that are convenient to pick up when running against her. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/77 "2016-03-05T03:54:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Let them cry “Communist.” I say, “Yeah, and?” You can say it all you want. But at age 39, Bernie was not just a regular member of the Socialist Workers Party, but an elector candidate. Anti-Stalinist? Yes. Anti-Leninist? Uh, no. 89 percent of independents might vote for a black or a woman, and 58 percent are willing to vote for the right Muslim. But just 49 percent are willing to consider a socialist: > **[In U.S., Socialist Presidential Candidates Least Appealing](https://news.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx)** > > More than nine in 10 Americans say they would vote for a qualified presidential candidate who is Catholic, a woman, black, Hispanic or Jewish. Less than half of Americans would vote for a candidate who is a socialist. Gallup has yet to check how many are willing to vote for a socialist who used to be a Communist. But I gonna say – less. Communist no more? Certainly that is better than still being an acolyte of Trotskyite permanent, non-metaphoric, revolution. But Sanders still has that streak of leftist purity that would be ballot box poison. And for some good reasons. For example, the man is, out of the purest ultra-progressive motives, planning to make global warming worse: > **[Bernie’s New Climate Change Plan Is an Environmentalist’s Dream, Except for...](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/12/bernie-sanders-climate-plan-calls-for-end-to-nuclear-energy.html)** > > On Monday, Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders announced a sweeping plan to combat climate change that would greatly build upon the... > [@](#): > > But there’s one major flaw in Bernie’s plan: Sanders is calling for a total phaseout of nuclear energy. He would place a moratorium on relicensing of the country’s aging nuclear power plants—from which we currently get about 20 percent of our electricity. In the U.S., a phaseout of nuclear power would greatly complicate our ability to cut carbon emissions over the next few decades. A recent modeling report by Third Way, a centrist think tank, showed that shuttered American nuclear plants would likely be replaced by natural gas—increasing net emissions. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/78 "2016-03-05T05:45:22Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I’m having a difficult time understanding what you’re saying. > > I do try to sway people I know, most won’t have any of it, and I end up on the defensive for Hilary. > Edit. That’s one of the reason’s I’m sick of this… I’ve been on FB trying to pimp Hilary in the tragic event that Bernie doesn’t win. Oh. That’s cool, then. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/79 "2016-03-05T07:35:42Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Do I need to cut and paste all the Madison Guaranty stuff, and the Clinton Foundation stuff? I guess I should have done this already. > > Yes, it’s there; yes, it’s ethically dubious; no, it’s not the emails (which are an appetizer for what’s coming if she’s nominated); yes, some of it is very eyebrow-raising. The Clinton Foundation stuff is literally right wing conspiracy theory shit, no more relevant or realistic a scandal as the Vince Foster shit was from the 90s. As for Madison Guaranty–we’ve already had one politically motivated investigation into Whitewater and all it ever found was Bill lied about getting a blowjob. Are you a Republican? Because you’re just repeating their fabrications about the Clintons. The Clintons aren’t saints, but when you say they’ve committed “high crimes” (as you have elsewhere) and have committed serious ethical lapses it’d be nice if you used ones which haven’t been explored at depth and shown to lack any merit and to be nothing more than the fever-dreams of Matt Drudge types. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881/80 "2016-03-05T14:46:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Andiethewestie** : > > How cozy is she to Wall street when she’s voted with Sanders and Elizabeth Warren 93% of the time and therefore considered a hard core liberal in the Senate? I don’t know how often she voted with Sanders, but I do know that she never voted with Warren, because their terms didn’t overlap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/against-trump-specifically-sanders-is-the-better-dem-candidate/747881.md?page=5)