# Age of Sail question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 24, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531 "2009-03-24T00:14:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/61 "2009-03-25T20:27:04Z")
The Forrester novel **Lord Hornblower** has Commodore Hornblower taking passage on a brigantine (admittedly much smaller than even a sloop). As a courtesy, Hornblower is given the cabin of the vessel’s master (a mere lieutenant): six feet by six by four feet high- the largest private space aboard ship. The novel mentions that despite their size the brigs are able to be credible ships of war, at the cost of subjecting the crew to conditions that a wise farmer would not keep his livestock in. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/62 "2009-03-25T22:54:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I happen to be re-reading Keegan’s _The Price of Admiralty_ this week. On page 109: > > So land-based heated shot and fire-ships might have been allowed. But ships didn’t use explosive projectiles (or other incendiary weapons) against each other. Thanks. That seems an odd place to draw the line to me, but the entire era was an odd mixture of honourable restraint in some circumstances and a more modern total war style in others. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/63 "2009-03-26T00:03:47Z")
Well, I know nothing of sailing but if I was offered a chance to sail on a ship old style I’d probably take it for the experience. All and all the experience sounds like back breaking work and under uncomfortable conditions. I wonder…did those sailors of the past have cats aboard to deal with the rats, or was that considered bad luck for some reason? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/64 "2009-03-26T00:39:29Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > That seems an odd place to draw the line to me, but the entire era was an odd mixture of honourable restraint in some circumstances and a more modern total war style in others. I think the shortage of explosive and incendiary weapons on board wooden sailing ships had at least as much to do with self-preservation as with honorable restraint. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/65 "2009-03-26T03:24:29Z")
I visited the _Victory_ in Portsmouth Harbor several years ago and was surprised at how cramped the below deck spaces were. On the gun decks I could stand upright only by standing between the deck beams. I’m 6’ 2" but I suppose a normal sized young male of the late 1700 and early 1800 could move around in the fighting spaces and working spaces without too much worry about caving in the top of his skull. The spaces below the water line were another matter entirely. The orlop and cockpit where the wounded were treated and where Nelson died could not have had more that four feet of clearance below the beams and maybe five feet between them. I felt like I was doubled over to walk through the area. The captain’s cabin, the admiral’s quarters and the ward room seemed pretty spacious and well lighted although the overhead clearance was probably not six feet. The ward room, the junior officers and warrant officers cabins off the wardroom, were probably about eight feet by six feet and constructed of very thin wooden panels. The _Victory_ was of the largest class of warships and had the most generous accommodations. This may explain why King William (who was himself a naval officer) authorized the Royal Navy to drink the Sovereign Toast seated. Ships like the _Victory_ were expected to stay at sea for six months at a time without touching land. 900 officers, rating and marines could not have lived on her without the strictest order and discipline. Just the problem of human waste would have rendered her uninhabitable in very short order without the rigid enforcement of sanitation discipline. Realize that unless you were and officer or a warrant officer you never had and privacy, and even then not much. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/66 "2009-03-26T05:17:41Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > nitpick: I think you mean foc’sle, which is shortened slang for forecastle. I’ve never seen is spelled fos’le before. I was trying to remember how it was spelled. Thanks and the correct spelling is really forecastle. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/67 "2009-03-26T07:53:29Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I spent a week in Maine learning how to sail a traditionally rigged schooner (no engine). We essentially did all the ship work ye olde sailors would have done, except that only the professional crew went up in the rigging and they did it with safety harnesses. (In regular daily sailing there isn’t much call to climb the ratlines on a boat like that, evidently.) Of course we had GPS and radio and such, but we learned to sail without them. Good lord is it a lot of work. A lot of _annoying_ work. > > Of course, a square rigged ship of the line is a completely different kettle of fish - more climbing, if nothing else. I don’t think I’d have paid good money to wriggle up to the crow’s nest by the futtock shrouds. (Also, the food was really, really good, which keeps you going.) A lot of work, yes, but there are moments that are truly amazing. Of course, this thread is mostly about fighting ships, and I imagine getting pressed into service and the chance of getting shot would take a lot of the romance out of it. > [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Well, I know nothing of sailing but if I was offered a chance to sail on a ship old style I’d probably take it for the experience. All and all the experience sounds like back breaking work and under uncomfortable conditions. I wonder…did those sailors of the past have cats aboard to deal with the rats, or was that considered bad luck for some reason? I know of one ship that might take you, and she already has a cat. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/68 "2009-03-26T08:30:24Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > There is a line in there about one tall captain of a smallish vessel who would put his head and shoulders out of the skylight of his cabin, lay his mirror, brush and razor on the deck, and shave standing upright. Can’t remember who it was. Duh. This was, of course, Cochrane himself when in command of HMS Speedy, a two-masted sloop with which he captured, burned or wrecked more than 50 ships including a 32-gun frigate in a year and 3 months. The floorspace of his cabin apparently measured six feet by four, and since it contained a table there was essentially no space. Apparently he had great trouble even sitting with his feet under the table, it was so cramped. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/69 "2009-03-26T11:39:43Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Duh. This was, of course, Cochrane himself when in command of HMS Speedy, a two-masted sloop with which he captured, burned or wrecked more than 50 ships including a 32-gun frigate in a year and 3 months. As you said, the model for Jack Aubrey in the book (not the film) _Master and Commander_ as the Master and Commander of the Sophie leading up to his battle with the Cacafuego. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/70 "2009-03-26T11:50:04Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > I visited the _Victory_ in Portsmouth Harbor several years ago and was surprised at how cramped the below deck spaces were. On the gun decks I could stand upright only by standing between the deck beams. I’m 6’ 2" but I suppose a normal sized young male of the late 1700 and early 1800 could move around in the fighting spaces and working spaces without too much worry about caving in the top of his skull. The spaces below the water line were another matter entirely. The orlop and cockpit where the wounded were treated and where Nelson died could not have had more that four feet of clearance below the beams and maybe five feet between them. I felt like I was doubled over to walk through the area. The captain’s cabin, the admiral’s quarters and the ward room seemed pretty spacious and well lighted although the overhead clearance was probably not six feet. The ward room, the junior officers and warrant officers cabins off the wardroom, were probably about eight feet by six feet and constructed of very thin wooden panels. The _Victory_ was of the largest class of warships and had the most generous accommodations. This may explain why King William (who was himself a naval officer) authorized the Royal Navy to drink the Sovereign Toast seated. Worth noting that low headroom was common on land as well as on ships. Many a time I’ve bashed my head when standing up at the [Barley Mow](http://www.homesteadbb.free-online.co.uk/oxon.html). Even Mrs Marcus brushes the lowest of the beams and she’s just 5 ft 2 in! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/71 "2009-03-26T12:16:20Z")
Ships had apparenlt lowered cabin heights in the age of sail. I visited the MAYFLOWER (replica-the original was built ca. 1600 AD)-and the captain’s “Great Cabin” was about 6’ height (I am 5’ 11", and I didn’t bump my head. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/72 "2009-03-26T13:04:45Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Ships had apparenlt lowered cabin heights in the age of sail. I visited the MAYFLOWER (replica-the original was built ca. 1600 AD)-and the captain’s “Great Cabin” was about 6’ height (I am 5’ 11", and I didn’t bump my head. Dunno for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the replica was “scaled up,” at least in its interior layout, to make it easier for visitors. ---
**Author:** ![Bluffcityguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ebca7d/32.png) [@Bluffcityguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bluffcityguy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/73 "2009-03-26T13:51:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > [@ralph124c](#): > > > > Ships had apparenlt lowered cabin heights in the age of sail. I visited the MAYFLOWER (replica-the original was built ca. 1600 AD)-and the captain’s “Great Cabin” was about 6’ height (I am 5’ 11", and I didn’t bump my head. > > Dunno for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the replica was “scaled up,” at least in its interior layout, to make it easier for visitors. If said replica was on display in the US, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was done to curtail liability claims in case some inattentive visitor whanged his/her head on an overhead beam or something like that. It’s a major PITA to defend liability claims, even when one isn’t ultimately liable. That’s assuming that the replica was “scaled up”; it’s possible it may not have been. Cheers, bcg ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/74 "2009-03-26T14:32:10Z")
Some of the ships were very fast a frigate could hit 12-14 knots and clippers 18-20. Victory not so much 6-8 tops. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/75 "2009-03-26T14:45:59Z")
> [@Bluffcityguy](#): > > That’s assuming that the replica was “scaled up”; it’s possible it may not have been. FWIW, the [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower) entry on the original Mayflower states: > [@](#): > > Details of the ship’s dimensions are unknown; but estimates based on its load weight and the typical size of 180-ton merchant ships of its day suggest an estimated length of 90–110 feet (27.4–33.5 m) and a width of about 25 feet (7.6 m).[6] > > The ship probably had a crew of twenty-five to thirty It may well be that the ‘replica’ is more of a ‘realistic embodiment of best available guesses’ than a clone of the original. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/76 "2009-03-26T19:06:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > It’s no wonder the Admiralty resorted to press gangs to snag anyone who might be able to serve as a sailor - imagine being grabbed in the street by a bunch of sailors, dragged off to sea and kept away from home perhaps for years - and all legal, too! [Impressment - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment) Note that not “anyone” was liable for impressment, only sailors. (And in those days sailros had a very distinct look). And the Army also resorted to impressment. So did we- we called it “the Draft”. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/77 "2009-03-26T19:26:46Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > I wonder…did those sailors of the past have cats aboard to deal with the rats, or was that considered bad luck for some reason? You didn’t need cats as long as you had [midshipmen aboard](http://books.google.com/books?id=AUxWtb2t_A0C&printsec=frontcover#PPA230,M1). ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531/78 "2009-03-29T19:05:50Z")
Just bumping this up because I have found a wonderful video that sets the mdd for this entire thread. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PZfYtCLA23s/hqdefault.jpg "Farewell and Adieu") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZfYtCLA23s) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/age-of-sail-question/490531.md?page=3)