# Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D S01E08: The Well (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 20, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316 "2013-11-20T03:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/81 "2013-11-22T14:47:04Z")
> [@kaltkalt](#): > > I want to like this show, and to some degree I do. But I am absolutely certain it will get cancelled. No second season. It got a whole first season b/c initial ratings were good. But those ratings have dropped off quickly. I’m never wrong about which shows will get cancelled. It’s my biggest talent. This show is dooooomed. True, but DVR according to reports DVR ratings are through the roof. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/82 "2013-11-22T15:59:59Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Took a look at some freeze frames last night, and it turns out to be “Glencallan 18”, a [Prop Brand Whiskey](http://issprops.com/graphics/products/category/whiskey). In Ireland??? My opinion of May has dropped like Simmons out a cargo hatch. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/83 "2013-11-22T18:28:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > True, but DVR according to reports DVR ratings are through the roof. Not in the US. If you read that LA Times piece I linked to it says > [@](#): > > The Nov. 5 episode of “S.H.I.E.L.D.” generated a rating of 3.7 among viewers ages 18 to 49 in the **live-plus-three-days category** , but that still represents a 42% slide from the premiere. emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/84 "2013-11-22T20:18:18Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Did he say “making fuck”? > > (now to click the link to see if I was right!) Sir, you win the internet for today 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SuperNelson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@SuperNelson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNelson)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/85 "2013-11-23T01:16:59Z")
I’m sure you all are right about Ward’s flashback scenes. Given the on-screen dialogue, we are shown Grant Ward as a slightly pudgy child at the top of the well, another child next to Grant bullying him, and a third child (presumably Grant’s brother) drowning in the water at the bottom of the well. We are shown that the first child is Grant, because both the child at the bottom of the well and the bully call him Grant. But the casting and camera angles are interesting. These are Grant Ward’s flashbacks, yet the camera’s point of view is always that of the child at the bottom of the well. Normally, this would indicate that Grant is the one in the well. And the bully looks much more like a young Grant Ward than the child being bullied. So the dialogue indicates that one child is Grant Ward; the camera angles indicates that another child is Grant; and the casting suggests that the third child is Grant. Three possibilities occur to me: 1. This could all be intentional, indicating that during his Berserker flashbacks, Grant feels the guilt of one child, the terror of the second, and the rage of the third. If so, it’s brilliantly subtle. 2. All three boys could be brothers, and the Ward brother now calling himself Grant is not the same brother. He could have taken his brothers name out of shame after a tragedy like being responsible for his brother’s accidental death. Which could fit in to the general theme of the team members’ individually mysterious backstories. 3. I could totally be reading too much into the camera angles and casting, and this scene is exactly what it first appears to be. But it does seem unlikely for television show so grounded in comic books to accidentally frame a well shot to reverse the character’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/86 "2013-11-23T01:26:54Z")
> [@SuperNelson](#): > > I’m sure you all are right about Ward’s flashback scenes. Given the on-screen dialogue, we are shown Grant Ward as a slightly pudgy child at the top of the well, another child next to Grant bullying him, and a third child (presumably Grant’s brother) drowning in the water at the bottom of the well. We are shown that the first child is Grant, because both the child at the bottom of the well and the bully call him Grant. > > But the casting and camera angles are interesting. These are Grant Ward’s flashbacks, yet the camera’s point of view is always that of the child at the bottom of the well. Normally, this would indicate that Grant is the one in the well. And the bully looks much more like a young Grant Ward than the child being bullied. So the dialogue indicates that one child is Grant Ward; the camera angles indicates that another child is Grant; and the casting suggests that the third child is Grant. > > Three possibilities occur to me: > > 1. This could all be intentional, indicating that during his Berserker flashbacks, Grant feels the guilt of one child, the terror of the second, and the rage of the third. If so, it’s brilliantly subtle. > > 2. All three boys could be brothers, and the Ward brother now calling himself Grant is not the same brother. He could have taken his brothers name out of shame after a tragedy like being responsible for his brother’s accidental death. Which could fit in to the general theme of the team members’ individually mysterious backstories. > > 3. I could totally be reading too much into the camera angles and casting, and this scene is exactly what it first appears to be. But it does seem unlikely for television show so grounded in comic books to accidentally frame a well shot to reverse the character’s point of view. He says to Coulson - “You know my family history” - which indicates that he has something deeply personal that he keeps ‘locked away’ - otherwise, I agree with you on #1 - that its several different viewpoints of the same ‘incident’ and we’re not meant to know which one of the roles he played - but it seems that it would not be the one @ the bottom of the well - one of the last cut scenes - where ‘bullied boy’ is finally lowering the rope (slowly, subtly) implies heavily that the ‘drowning boy’ did, in fact, drown. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/87 "2013-11-23T02:26:15Z")
Well, I’ve been very down on this show throughout and told my husband before we watched this one that this was the last goddamned one we were bothering with unless we heard later that it got AWESOME. And then they finally gave me the show I wanted all along! About how ordinary people react to the revelation that there are space aliens and space sort-of-gods? and your grandpa frozen in ice and all. I really thought the guy who plays Ward did well this time - perhaps I just hate him because of the script? And suddenly people are acting like adults and shit? So now I don’t know if this show sucks or not. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/88 "2013-11-23T04:42:02Z")
> [@SuperNelson](#): > > 1. I could totally be reading too much into the camera angles and casting, and this scene is exactly what it first appears to be. But it does seem unlikely for television show so grounded in comic books to accidentally frame a well shot to reverse the character’s point of view. The berserker’s staff (_snerk_) makes those who grasp it relive a memory such that they are filled with rage. I interpreted the flashback viewpoint as the staff making Grant relive the memory _from his brother’s viewpoint_, to crank up his own anger at his failure to help his brother. Grant already knew how horrible he was from his own viewpoint; now he knows how horrible he was _from his brother’s_ viewpoint – much more rage and guilt inducing. And, seriously, after this episode y’all need to stop breathlessly talking about this show’s “Whedonesque dialogue”. There is _no way_ an episode about people looking to get a grip on the berserker’s “staff” would have passed without some snarky innuendo on **Buffy** , **Angel** , or **Firefly** , as it did on this show. _That_ would have been Whedonesque; not here, though. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/89 "2013-11-23T07:09:12Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Anybody else catch the _Dollhouse_ reference? No. You must have imagined it. Would you like a treatment? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/90 "2013-11-23T07:30:55Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It was a nice touch to show that all Asgardians are into bestiality, not just Thor. > > “No, horny.” > [@Grumman](#): > > Being sexually attracted to other sapient humanoids isn’t bestiality. “Miscegenation” seems more apt (if loaded in its own way). > [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Good ep, things are chugging along. I liked the swerve with Randolph and I didn’t think of that coming at all. Neither did I. > [@TBG](#): > > I know it’s a pointless thing to complain about, but I don’t like how the movieverse takes the stance that Asgardians are space aliens. From space. On another planet. Nah, that’s Stargate. In the MU proper, they’re more from another dimension, not someplace you could go if you had a spaceship. \ SHIELD doesn’t get that. Imperfect understanding on the characters’ parts. > [@tracer](#): > > Now now, all we know is that he went into her hotel room, and that she’d been drinking. (From a rather large bottle.) > > Maybe they just talked about their sordid pasts. I actually expected that to be the point, and was surprised how…seductive May came off in the shot. > [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I know almost nothing about Marvel. I wonder how that affects my enjoyment. I miss a lot of allusions, but I think that might mean I’m pretty flexible when they stray from the script. I don’t think there are that many allusions, really. Some to the movies. Or I’m missing them too. > [@SuperNelson](#): > > I’m sure you all are right about Ward’s flashback scenes. Given the on-screen dialogue, we are shown Grant Ward as a slightly pudgy child at the top of the well, another child next to Grant bullying him, and a third child (presumably Grant’s brother) drowning in the water at the bottom of the well. We are shown that the first child is Grant, because both the child at the bottom of the well and the bully call him Grant. > > But the casting and camera angles are interesting. These are Grant Ward’s flashbacks, yet the camera’s point of view is always that of the child at the bottom of the well. Normally, this would indicate that Grant is the one in the well. And the bully looks much more like a young Grant Ward than the child being bullied. So the dialogue indicates that one child is Grant Ward; the camera angles indicates that another child is Grant; and the casting suggests that the third child is Grant. > > Three possibilities occur to me: > > 1. This could all be intentional, indicating that during his Berserker flashbacks, Grant feels the guilt of one child, the terror of the second, and the rage of the third. If so, it’s brilliantly subtle. > > 2. All three boys could be brothers, and the Ward brother now calling himself Grant is not the same brother. He could have taken his brothers name out of shame after a tragedy like being responsible for his brother’s accidental death. Which could fit in to the general theme of the team members’ individually mysterious backstories. > > 3. I could totally be reading too much into the camera angles and casting, and this scene is exactly what it first appears to be. But it does seem unlikely for television show so grounded in comic books to accidentally frame a well shot to reverse the character’s point of view. I thought it was meant to be a subversion of the audience’s expectation, and I think I’ve seen that trick before (in TV at least)–but I agree that they pointed to him being any (all?) of the three and I like your first answer. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/91 "2013-11-23T12:14:59Z")
> [@SuperNelson](#): > > I’m sure you all are right about Ward’s flashback scenes. Given the on-screen dialogue, we are shown Grant Ward as a slightly pudgy child at the top of the well, another child next to Grant bullying him, and a third child (presumably Grant’s brother) drowning in the water at the bottom of the well. We are shown that the first child is Grant, because both the child at the bottom of the well and the bully call him Grant. > > But the casting and camera angles are interesting. These are Grant Ward’s flashbacks, yet the camera’s point of view is always that of the child at the bottom of the well. Normally, this would indicate that Grant is the one in the well. And the bully looks much more like a young Grant Ward than the child being bullied. So the dialogue indicates that one child is Grant Ward; the camera angles indicates that another child is Grant; and the casting suggests that the third child is Grant. > > Three possibilities occur to me: > > 1. This could all be intentional, indicating that during his Berserker flashbacks, Grant feels the guilt of one child, the terror of the second, and the rage of the third. If so, it’s brilliantly subtle. > > 2. All three boys could be brothers, and the Ward brother now calling himself Grant is not the same brother. He could have taken his brothers name out of shame after a tragedy like being responsible for his brother’s accidental death. Which could fit in to the general theme of the team members’ individually mysterious backstories. > > 3. I could totally be reading too much into the camera angles and casting, and this scene is exactly what it first appears to be. But it does seem unlikely for television show so grounded in comic books to accidentally frame a well shot to reverse the character’s point of view. I agree with your reasoning to some extent good sir. I do believe it was intentional for the viewers to see from the perspective of each child and wonder if they were seeing through Grant Ward’s eyes, for a time. I think that the audience was meant to conclude, like others have said, that the child in the well was the little brother, grant is the older brother, and the third kid is the oldest brother or friend. I would also like to add that I’m not entirely convinced that the child in the well actually drowned. Until I got on this board I really thought he might not have. It does show him slipping under the water, from his point of view, as the rope is being lowered, but he just as easily could have resurfaced to grab the rope. Maybe there’s more to the story, or maybe it’s just meant to be ambiguous and they will never tell us. Idk. I just think it could have been something less serious than an accidental death but just as traumatic as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/92 "2013-11-23T15:22:32Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > And, seriously, after this episode y’all need to stop breathlessly talking about this show’s “Whedonesque dialogue”. There is _no way_ an episode about people looking to get a grip on the berserker’s “staff” would have passed without some snarky innuendo on **Buffy** , **Angel** , or **Firefly** , as it did on this show. _That_ would have been Whedonesque; not here, though. What got me was the _“I am not afraid of you”_ announcement to a now-godly Melinda May by the Last Blonde Standing; the latter attacks, the former pole-axes her. There’s no smirking quip; no callback metaphor; no insult, no boast; just **BAM**. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/93 "2013-11-23T16:28:32Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What got me was the _“I am not afraid of you”_ announcement to a now-godly Melinda May by the Last Blonde Standing; the latter attacks, the former pole-axes her. > > There’s no smirking quip; no callback metaphor; no insult, no boast; just **BAM**. Right, someone should have said “You should be.” ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/94 "2013-11-23T20:39:16Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Oh, I think Ward also recognizes the possibility he would hook up with Skye- which is even _more_ reason to hook up with May. With Skye, it wouldn’t happen without emotional entanglement- she wants “to be there” for him, evidenced in the immediately preceeding scene. Ward knows that a romantic entanglement with Skye would compromise his ability to do his job. Also, he recognizes the possibility (probability?) that he’ll end up hurting her- in direct conflict with his responsibility to _protect_ her. > > Not only is there no romantic entanglement with May, but to engage in an emotionally detached sexual relationship makes it easier to remain detached in all other relationships as well. Plus, it’s pretty obvious that Ward an Skye are an “official couple”, or are going to be, and thus if you have them actually get together people will stop tuning in. It’s one of the oldest hooks in the book: [Will They or Won't They? - TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillTheyOrWontThey) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/95 "2013-11-23T21:53:11Z")
Coulson said he first met Randolph when he was trying to figure out what Mjolnir was doing embedded in New Mexico. How do you suppose that conversation went? Granted, when Randolph left Asgard back in the 12th century to go fight frost giants in Norway, the hammer was probably sitting in the vault waiting for Thor to grow up and be worthy, but you’d think Randolph would have gone to ground as soon as Coulson left, rather than heading back to class to see if he can boink a few more co-eds. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/96 "2013-11-23T22:55:01Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Coulson said he first met Randolph when he was trying to figure out what Mjolnir was doing embedded in New Mexico. How do you suppose that conversation went? Granted, when Randolph left Asgard back in the 12th century to go fight frost giants in Norway, the hammer was probably sitting in the vault waiting for Thor to grow up and be worthy, but you’d think Randolph would have gone to ground as soon as Coulson left, rather than heading back to class to see if he can boink a few more co-eds. Well, Coulson just said he consulted with him. I think it’s left open to interpret that as being a remote consultation (Skype/e-mail) rather than actually flying Randolph out to New Mexico (to keep the fanboys from yelling “Nah-uh! Then why didn’t we see him in the Thor movie!?!?!?”). There are very few options I would choose if a conflicting option was to boink a few more co-eds. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/97 "2013-11-24T01:24:12Z")
I don’t think Thor was a child in the 12th Century CE. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316/98 "2013-11-24T01:52:02Z")
I’ve been assuming that Thor was raised as the older son, seeing as how Odin raised him to be king. Since Odin found Loki at the end of the war, I’ve also been assuming Thor was born shortly before or during the war, certainly not after. The timing is kind of tricky, depending on how long it takes them to grow to physical maturity… if it’s the same 18-20 years it is for us, that’s barely the blink of an eye, but if it’s stretched out by their longevity, Thor could have been around as a baby for decades before the war even started and still look about the same age as Loki. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e08-the-well-open-spoilers/674316.md?page=4)