# Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D S01E21:Ragtag (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868 "2014-05-07T04:00:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/141 "2014-05-10T12:02:15Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > He was accepted as a recruit, in 2004, from my count. Say 3 years training, that leaves him with 5 years or so standing come the pilot. > Annnnd , did Hill not say that his people skills were awful? It turns out he really was a poop. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/142 "2014-05-10T12:20:15Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > His most impressive achievement, in my opinion, was to become _fluent in FIVE languages_ during those three years! > (Unless, of course, we’re assuming he was either fluent in five languages when Garrett found him or he learned five languages while living in the woods) Maybe he was fluent in three and learned two in the woods? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/143 "2014-05-10T12:29:46Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Based on the Agent Carter short, which seems to be the “pilot” for the series, I don’t think we are supposed to respect them at all. Pretty sure a central point of the show is going to be dealing with sexism and racism. Yeah, I suppose I shouldn’t have said “SHIELD” exactly, but one or two enlightened characters. Wasn’t that one of the main points of the short? All these low-to-mid-level agents don’t appreciate women as agents, but Howard Stark and whoever else is behind the scenes are smart enough to know better? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/144 "2014-05-10T13:10:29Z")
If Ward has a moderate flair for languages, picking up a few in SHIELD isn’t that big a deal. I’m sure they have methods that are at least as good as DLIFLC at Monterey. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/145 "2014-05-10T16:03:22Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Yeah, I suppose I shouldn’t have said “SHIELD” exactly, but one or two enlightened characters. Wasn’t that one of the main points of the short? All these low-to-mid-level agents don’t appreciate women as agents, but Howard Stark and whoever else is behind the scenes are smart enough to know better? And great camouflage for the agents. Dress a woman like a secretary and a black guy like an elevator operator or train porter and they’d both be invisible to the bad guys, who certainly lack the enlightened sense of the good guys. If your enemies want to underestimate you, make it easy for them. ---
**Author:** ![MrKnowItAll](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrknowitall/32/87_2.png) [@MrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/146 "2014-05-10T16:23:35Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Yeah, but it was going slowly in “Harrier mode” so the jets would stabilize the aircraft when it was dumping the module. Yeah, that’s the ticket!. I think Gladiator just won a No-Prize. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/147 "2014-05-10T16:55:55Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Dude, Joss killed a main credits character in the freaking _first episode_ of **Buffy**. Then he killed Doyle in the first season of **Angel**. That one was not totally his fault, I’ll admit. Can you explain this? There are many shows who kill off a character in the first episode, but I’ve never heard of such an actor being part of the main credits. I’m surprised that SAG would allow that. And really, why the hell would anybody in the audience care about someone killed off in the first episode? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Maybe he was fluent in three and learned two in the woods? He was in the woods only six months before Garrett came back. Then there are 4 1/2 years of training of some kind that included weaponry. Garrett was getting him prepared for entrance to SHIELD, so languages should have been a part of that. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/148 "2014-05-10T17:29:18Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > That’s what I’m expecting, if I’m right about Triplett’s grandfather. Or more to the point, we’ll be supposed to admire SHIELD for its open-mindedness in listening to both a woman _and_ a black guy. “Hey look, they’re not racist even though this is set in the past” is a pretty standard way to tell audiences they’re supposed to respect a character. Maybe they’ll have a closet gay, too. He can make funny little gay quips only he, his friends and the hip modern audience gets. Then die. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Can you explain this? There are many shows who kill off a character in the first episode, but I’ve never heard of such an actor being part of the main credits. I’m surprised that SAG would allow that. > > And really, why the hell would anybody in the audience care about someone killed off in the first episode? I was never big into Buffy, but decided to give Angel a shot and the character Doyle was immediately my favorite. They killed him first ep or so. Turned out the actor had problems that may have had something to do with his getting booted off the show. He killed himself shortly after leaving the show. Joss kills cool people in real life too! :eek: > [@](#): > > He was in the woods only six months before Garrett came back. Then there are 4 1/2 years of training of some kind that included weaponry. Garrett was getting him prepared for entrance to SHIELD, so languages should have been a part of that. Ward may not have spent the remaining 4-5 years in the woods. Garrett could have been hauling him around the world on fake passports too, getting him the best personal training wherever they went. Top agents are just a notch below super heroes. That is, super powers or not, they have aptitudes and inborn discipline and drive that sets them above the rest of us. I’m okay with that. He’s like La Femme Nikita. Garrett was evidently a high-enough level agent he was allowed to recruit & groom potential agents with a fair amount of leeway. Garrett himself could vouch for the period of time he was off the grid, so his background check for SHIELD academy would check out. Like Kirk, Ward probably breezed through half the training. ETA: What I don’t get is why generalists are called Specialists. Fitz & Simmons are specialists, but they’re just called agents. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/149 "2014-05-10T17:44:33Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I was never big into Buffy, but decided to give Angel a shot and the character Doyle was immediately my favorite. They killed him first ep or so. Turned out the actor had problems that may have had something to do with his getting booted off the show. He killed himself shortly after leaving the show. Joss kills cool people in real life too! :eek: I looked this up. He was killed in the ninth episode and died three years later of a drug overdose. > [@](#): > > Ward may not have spent the remaining 4-5 years in the woods. I know they left this ambiguous, but it’s seriously nuts to think that he lived in the woods for five years getting advanced training out of whatever Garrett put in the back of his pickup. Though that’s nowhere near as nuts as knowing that Hydra let a whole prison’s worth of superpowered psychopaths armed with alien superweaponry out into the world and all they’ll do is pop up one at a time to give future episodes a plot. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/150 "2014-05-12T12:29:20Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Dude, Joss killed a main credits character in the freaking _first episode_ of **Buffy**. Then he killed Doyle in the first season of **Angel**. That one was not totally his fault, I’ll admit. And his stated reason for doing that IIRC (killing off Jessie(?) in _Buffy_), was to show viewers that _no one_ was safe, that anyone could die at any time. Because, you know, fighting monsters and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/151 "2014-05-12T15:00:47Z")
> [@Sean\_Factotum](#): > > And his stated reason for doing that IIRC (killing off Jessie(?) in _Buffy_), was to show viewers that _no one_ was safe, that anyone could die at any time. Because, you know, fighting monsters and all that. Let’s sum up. A totally meaningless red shirt gets killed in one series and an actor gets booted for drug use in another. So no main character ever has died in a first season because “Whedon likes to kill them off.” Got it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/152 "2014-05-12T15:08:36Z")
Joss prefers to kill off characters after everybody has invested some emotional connection into them. That way it hurts more. There are people who still haven’t forgiven him for Tara, and I personally still want to kick him in the balls over Wash. So I don’t think there is any way in the world Ward is going to bite it tomorrow night. He’s too good a villain to waste that way. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/153 "2014-05-12T15:26:05Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Let’s sum up. > > A totally meaningless red shirt gets killed in one series and an actor gets booted for drug use in another. > > So no main character ever has died in a first season because “Whedon likes to kill them off.” > > Got it. You are essentially correct. Whedon has a reputation because main characters have been killed off in his shows but not necessarily in the first episode. There was at least one case where a recurring character was added to the credit and then killed in the same episode (being vague for spoiler reasons). I think that’s where this all comes from. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/154 "2014-05-12T15:28:52Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I looked this up. He was killed in the ninth episode and died three years later of a drug overdose. Oh, I thought they killed him sooner than that. It’s been a long time. I did like him the most though, and didn’t bother keeping up with the show much after that. Anyway, back to Agents of Shield… ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/155 "2014-05-12T15:41:51Z")
My hunch is that Joss really hasn’t had much to do with the running of the show. He wrote the general “bible” for it, came up with some characters and maybe tossed in some ideas for arcs. But I’d bet that’s about it. Jed and Maurissa are doing all the heavy lifting. Joss is too busy with _Avengers 2_ to be involved with _AoS_ much. As far as I know, Jed isn’t _quite_ as evil as his brother. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/156 "2014-05-12T15:57:48Z")
> [@Sean\_Factotum](#): > > And his stated reason for doing that IIRC (killing off Jessie(?) in _Buffy_), was to show viewers that _no one_ was safe, that anyone could die at any time. Because, you know, fighting monsters and all that. And, just to further clarify, Jesse was **not** a main credits character. He was introduced in the episode as if he were going to be a regular–he was a friend of Xander and Willow, exchanged some quippy pleasantries with Buffy, was made to look as if he were going to be part of the gang. And then he got killed. But he was never in the opening credits. Whedon has said (on the DVD commentary, among other places) that he _wanted_ to put Eric Balfour in the opening credits of that first episode, precisely so that viewers would make that he’s-in-the-credits-so-he’s-safe assumption and be all the more shocked by his death. But he wasn’t allowed to, because of SAG rules about credits. I also agree that Whedon’s reputation for killing off characters is a touch overblown. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/157 "2014-05-12T16:26:19Z")
How many people remember the first episode of _CSI_? The episode was based around the character of Holly Gribbs, a new investigator joining the team on her first day. The episode established Holly’s background and followed her through her introduction to the other characters and the routine of forensic investigation. And then she was shot and killed by a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/158 "2014-05-12T16:29:57Z")
Or _Hill Street Blues_, for that matter? Hill and Renko were supposed to die at the end of the first episode, but were saved when Bochco relented. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/159 "2014-05-12T17:19:40Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Whedon has said (on the DVD commentary, among other places) that he _wanted_ to put Eric Balfour in the opening credits of that first episode, precisely so that viewers would make that he’s-in-the-credits-so-he’s-safe assumption and be all the more shocked by his death. But he wasn’t allowed to, because of SAG rules about credits. According to Wikipedia, which cites the DVD commentary, it was budget that was the issue, not SAG rules. They couldn’t afford the extra title sequence. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868/160 "2014-05-13T00:17:29Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I personally still want to kick him in the balls over Wash. Fuckin’ A. :mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-s01e21-ragtag-open-spoilers/687868.md?page=9)