# Agents-provacateurs disguised as antifa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736 "2017-05-02T19:06:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/1 "2017-05-02T19:06:15Z")
My best friend was on some message board of the local far-right, and she says she witnessed a discussion wherein some board members discussed going to protests disguised as antifa, so that they could kick ass on protesters/actual antifa. They were discussing how to distinguish themselves from the other, actual antifa so that they would not end up beating on each other. Then they took the discussion offline. I’d rather not post this in GD because I don’t want to debate its veracity. My friend is the most honest, forthright person I know, and she never exaggerates or confabulates. If she says it happened, it happened. What I would like to talk about is what on earth to do about such a tactic? Although I am strongly against fascism, I am not an actual antifa myself. But this tactic is very, very dangerous. It escalates the violence enormously, and is a direct attempt to discredit the left in general while fulfilling the brutal urge on the part of the far-right guys to beat to a pulp people who disagree with them. It is bullying cloaked in cowardice. The only thing I can think of is to convince the actual antifa to stop going to protests, but this seems unlikely and even if the actual antifa stayed home, I suspect that it wouldn’t prevent much violence from the far-right guys. Maybe we can have cops go undercover as antifa, and stop ANYONE who attacks another person? (Quite frankly, I am not concerned about property damage much. Don’t want to debate that either.) I think these peoples’ ultimate goal (besides whacking protesters with “sign sticks”) is to cause so much ruckus at protests that they are banned outright. Then they won’t have to listen to or even look at anyone who disagrees with them and can continue to delude themselves that they are on the side of God. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/2 "2017-05-02T19:35:45Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > … even if the actual antifa stayed home, I suspect that it wouldn’t prevent much violence from the far-right guys. Who are the far-right guys going to commit violence against if the antifa stays home? > [@](#): > > Maybe we can have cops go undercover as antifa, and stop ANYONE who attacks another person? I would agree with this, but I don’t see why the police need to be undercover. Anyone, antifa, counter-protester, whatever, who initiates or incites violence gets arrested. > [@](#): > > I think these peoples’ ultimate goal (besides whacking protesters with “sign sticks”) is to cause so much ruckus at protests that they are banned outright. Then they won’t have to listen to or even look at anyone who disagrees with them and can continue to delude themselves that they are on the side of God. It appears to me, at least in the recent cases of Milo whatever-his-last-name-is and Ann Coulter, that Antifa are the ones trying to silence those with whom they disagree, including with threats of violence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/3 "2017-05-02T19:57:10Z")
Or there are sometimes Milo supporters shooting people. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/4 "2017-05-02T20:23:14Z")
I, a while ago, put together a list of civil unrest since ~1960 or so in the U.S. [Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States)to Wiki page on civil unrest in the U.S. The list was interesting in that the vast majority of the political violence came from the left. The riots were overwhelmingly from leftists. Second place was sports violence, riots because a team won/lost the World Series kind of thing. The violence from right groups tended to be either a) blow something up (Timothy Mcveigh/The Unabomber\*) or things like the Bundy standoff. Yet there seems to be a common idea that the right is more violent than the left\*\*. This confuses me. Slee \*Not sure if ‘batshit crazy’ ought to be considered right wing (though I am sure that most on this board won’t mind) but I tossed him in anyway. \*\* Yes, when Trump won there was some violence. Yes, it was bad and shouldn’t have happened. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/5 "2017-05-02T20:27:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Who are the far-right guys going to commit violence against if the antifa stays home? Various RESIST protesters. As evidenced at Trump rallies. With respect to antifa, it’s my understanding that the majority of them are anarchists, of the ‘watch the world burn’ variety. I’m okay with them being arrested and charged to full extent of the law for the criminal acts they commit. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/6 "2017-05-02T20:33:58Z")
So, **brujaja** , I guess that settles it. As **Shodan** and **sleestak** have kindly pointed out, the left has been responsible for violence in the past, so, therefore, if these antifa get beat up then they are just getting what they deserve, yah? I’m sure they will both be back here shortly demanding that I find the exact wording that supports that claim, so I’ll save them the trouble. That is my interpretation of what I read in your posts, lads. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/7 "2017-05-02T20:38:28Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > I, a while ago, put together a list of civil unrest since ~1960 or so in the U.S. > > [Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States)to Wiki page on civil unrest in the U.S. > > The list was interesting in that the vast majority of the political violence came from the left. The riots were overwhelmingly from leftists. Second place was sports violence, riots because a team won/lost the World Series kind of thing. > > The violence from right groups tended to be either a) blow something up (Timothy Mcveigh/The Unabomber\*) or things like the Bundy standoff. Yet there seems to be a common idea that the right is more violent than the left\*\*. > > This confuses me. > > Slee > > \*Not sure if ‘batshit crazy’ ought to be considered right wing (though I am sure that most on this board won’t mind) but I tossed him in anyway. > > \*\* Yes, when Trump won there was some violence. Yes, it was bad and shouldn’t have happened. Not exactly sure how blowing up a building full of people is less violent than rioting. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/8 "2017-05-02T20:41:41Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > So, **brujaja** , I guess that settles it. As **Shodan** and **sleestak** have kindly pointed out, the left has been responsible for violence in the past, so, therefore, if these antifa get beat up then they are just getting what they deserve, yah? > > I’m sure they will both be back here shortly demanding that I find the exact wording that supports that claim, so I’ll save them the trouble. That is my interpretation of what I read in your posts, lads. That is your interpretation of “Anyone, antifa, counter-protester, whatever, who initiates or incites violence gets arrested.” Ooooookay then. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/9 "2017-05-02T20:47:28Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > What I would like to talk about is what on earth to do about such a tactic? The best advice I can give you or anyone else is to stay the hell away from Antifa / BAMN / like-minded groups that use violence to promote their cause or stifle their opponents. > [@brujaja](#): > > … even if the actual antifa stayed home, I suspect that it wouldn’t prevent much violence from the far-right guys. Why in the world do you suspect this? Antifa largely stayed away from the rally on April 27th and it was largely peaceful. If Antifa stayed home, I suspect the events would be virtually violence-free. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/10 "2017-05-02T21:42:50Z")
I’m unconvinced that “I saw idiots discussing a dumb idea on a message board” equates to a problem requiring action. [QUOTE=brujaja] Maybe we can have cops go undercover as antifa [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’m sure that would go well. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/11 "2017-05-02T22:08:29Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > Maybe we can have cops go undercover as antifa In my experience, cops infiltrating protest groups are typically there to _start_ shit, not quell it. ---
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/12 "2017-05-02T23:44:21Z")
Sorry, I misspoke. What I meant was, “cops dressed as typical antifa.” Not infiltrating ala COINTELPRO, just wearing the outfit too. That way, if there were far-right agents-provacateurs committed to sucker-punching regular intifa without whatever their distinguishing mark is, they might find themselves in jail after punching a cop who looked like “the enemy.” Turnabout’s fair play. The reason I think this is relevant is – in what city has most of the antifa-related violence happened? Berkeley, California, you say? That’s where we live. (nearby) So any violence you have heard about occurring in the SF Bay Area by black-clad supposed anarchists may have been these asshats all along. And my main goal here anyway is to out their slimy false-flag tactics, so hopefully someone with some sense will take note and remember how popular that tired old chicken move is with fascists down through history. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/13 "2017-05-03T01:35:01Z")
Some of the most severe violence by Antifa lately-the girl swinging the wine bottle and the man who hit a guy in the head with a bike lock-were identified as known left-wing activists, not “false flags.” (The guy swinging the bike lock was identified by 4chan et al based on pictures of his masked face. He’s an ethics (ha!) professor and left-wing activist. It’s not 100% sure, but it sure looks like him and he’s been seen unmasked at other similar events.) ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/14 "2017-05-03T02:24:37Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > My best friend was on some message board of the local far-right, and she says she witnessed a discussion wherein some board members discussed going to protests disguised as antifa, so that they could kick ass on protesters/actual antifa. They were discussing how to distinguish themselves from the other, actual antifa so that they would not end up beating on each other. Then they took the discussion offline. > > I’d rather not post this in GD because I don’t want to debate its veracity. My friend is the most honest, forthright person I know, and she never exaggerates or confabulates. If she says it happened, it happened. > > What I would like to talk about is what on earth to do about such a tactic? Although I am strongly against fascism, I am not an actual antifa myself. But this tactic is very, very dangerous. It escalates the violence enormously, and is a direct attempt to discredit the left in general while fulfilling the brutal urge on the part of the far-right guys to beat to a pulp people who disagree with them. > > It is bullying cloaked in cowardice. The only thing I can think of is to convince the actual antifa to stop going to protests, but this seems unlikely and even if the actual antifa stayed home, I suspect that it wouldn’t prevent much violence from the far-right guys. > > Maybe we can have cops go undercover as antifa, and stop ANYONE who attacks another person? (Quite frankly, I am not concerned about property damage much. Don’t want to debate that either.) > > I think these peoples’ ultimate goal (besides whacking protesters with “sign sticks”) is to cause so much ruckus at protests that they are banned outright. Then they won’t have to listen to or even look at anyone who disagrees with them and can continue to delude themselves that they are on the side of God. What you are describing is not what agent-provocateurs do. The idea is to discredit the movement by committing acts against _other_ people while pretending to be part of that movement. By showing up pretending to be part of the group and then expose themselves as outsiders by beating the real members up doesn’t delegitimize the group, it can be argued that it would do the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/15 "2017-05-03T04:44:23Z")
The US is not in imminent danger of turning fascist, so neither the fascists nor the anti-fascists are accomplishing anything except having a good ol’ time of forming gangs and tussling with one another. I would strongly suspect that this is, at the end of the day, the main motive for both groups. The best way to deal with this is to do other things that actually matter. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/16 "2017-05-03T12:55:10Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > Sorry, I misspoke. What I meant was, “cops dressed as typical antifa.” Not infiltrating ala COINTELPRO, just wearing the outfit too. That way, if there were far-right agents-provacateurs committed to sucker-punching regular intifa without whatever their distinguishing mark is, they might find themselves in jail after punching a cop who looked like “the enemy.” Turnabout’s fair play. Why do they need to dress up? Cops show up in uniform, anyone who uses or initiates violence gets arrested. It doesn’t matter if it’s antifa attacking someone or someone attacking antifa. > [@](#): > > The reason I think this is relevant is – in what city has most of the antifa-related violence happened? Berkeley, California, you say? That’s where we live. (nearby) So any violence you have heard about occurring in the SF Bay Area by black-clad supposed anarchists may have been these asshats all along. Sure, maybe. Or maybe antifa is committing violence on their own account. [It’s not like anarchists committing violent acts is completely unheard of](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/anarchists-respond-to-trumps-inauguration-by-any-means-necessary.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/17 "2017-05-03T14:08:10Z")
I consider myself a pretty well-informed guy, but am I supposed to know what “antifa” means? I don’t know that word. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/18 "2017-05-03T14:23:25Z")
Anti-fascist. RegSho ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/19 "2017-05-03T14:44:04Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > What I would like to talk about is what on earth to do about such a tactic? Wouldn’t they be subject to arrest and criminal charges like anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736/20 "2017-05-03T16:57:01Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > The reason I think this is relevant is – in what city has most of the antifa-related violence happened? Berkeley, California, you say? That’s where we live. (nearby) So any violence you have heard about occurring in the SF Bay Area by black-clad supposed anarchists may have been these asshats all along… No, it’s well known to be Black Bloc anarchists, who are actually fairly well organized and whose goal is to turn peaceful demonstrations into violent ones. And they have pretty much succeeded. > **[Black bloc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc)** > > A black bloc (sometimes black block) is a tactic used by protesters who wear black clothing, ski masks, scarves, sunglasses, motorcycle helmets with padding or other face-concealing and face-protecting items. The clothing is used to conceal wearers' identities from both the police and politically different organizations by making it difficult to distinguish between participants. It is also used to protect their faces and eyes from pepper spray, which is used by police during protests or civ The... > **[Ted Wheeler Appalled, Black Bloc Giddy Over Portland Fracas and Fires](https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2017/05/02/antifa-gush-over-portland-fracas-and-fires-that-was-a-riot/)** > **[Black Bloc Protesters Hurl Pepsi Cans at Police, Set Newspaper Boxes on Fire...](https://www.wweek.com/news/2017/05/01/black-bloc-protesters-hurl-pepsi-cans-at-police-set-newspaper-boxes-on-fire-in-the-portland-street/)** > **[Dane Powell, ‘Black bloc’ protester, pleads guilty to felonies from...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/28/dane-powell-black-bloc-protester-pleads-guilty-to-/)** > > A Florida man with the radical “black bloc” protest network pleaded guilty Friday to felony rioting and assault for his role in the Inauguration Day chaos in Washington, D.C. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/what-is-the-black-bloc/2017/04/27/f8cb4caa-2b58-11e7-9081-f5405f56d3e4\_video.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/what-is-the-black-bloc/2017/04/27/f8cb4caa-2b58-11e7-9081-f5405f56d3e4_video.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agents-provacateurs-disguised-as-antifa/785736.md?page=2)