# Aging While Female
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 16, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734 "2018-08-16T15:38:06Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/21 "2018-08-16T23:17:16Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> I’m not going to accept “I don’t respect the woman and the type of work she does, and thus it’s impossible for her to be discriminated against” as valid argument.
What the fuck are you talking about? Sure, it is possible for her to be discriminated against. I don’t think catching flak when you moon people is discrimination. What subsection of society has carte blanche on mooning people?
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/22 "2018-08-16T23:21:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> What the fuck are you talking about? Sure, it is possible for her to be discriminated against. I don’t think catching flak when you moon people is discrimination. What subsection of society has carte blanche on mooning people?
Depends on the kind of flak. It appears that Madonna is of the opinion that the flak in question is less “that’s scandalous, stop it!” and more “you’re old and thus you’re ugly and ugly women should go away, stop it!” Those are substantively different kinds of flak.
Admittedly, she could be mischaracterizing the situation, but if she’s hearing “you’re too _old_ to be flashing your ass!”, then she kind of isn’t.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/23 "2018-08-16T23:26:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> [Madonna turns 60: The painful lessons she taught us about aging while female](https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2018/08/16/madonna-turns-60-revisit-her-painful-lessons-aging-while-female/982562002/)
She should talk to Helen Mirren.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/24 "2018-08-16T23:34:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Admittedly, she could be mischaracterizing the situation, but if she’s hearing “you’re too _old_ to be flashing your ass!”, then she kind of isn’t.
In an “old enough to know better” sense, that actually isn’t that crazy.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/25 "2018-08-16T23:40:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> In an “old enough to know better” sense, that actually isn’t that crazy.
It’s crazy to say it _now_. She was old enough to know better thirty years ago.
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### Author:  [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/26 "2018-08-16T23:52:40Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> I haven’t been following this closely, but, isn’t Madonna _successfully_ putting on her shows to large crowds, who (by their continued interests) are demonstrating that she’s quite clearly a successful artist, sexual or not? And she’s protesting independent third parties who are critizing her based on an utter disconnect with her actual success, purely because they as non-fans think that old females should disappear into the mists or whatever old females do?
>
> I’m not seeing even a _speck_ of double-standard.
The double standard is her claim that she’s being unfairly judged, when in fact the harshest judgments are precisely the ones that are spot-on. What 14-year-old boys currently think of Madonna is the ultimate truth of Madonna, and she prefers to try to deflect that or pretend it’s something else. But she made her bed etc.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/27 "2018-08-16T23:57:29Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#):
>
> The double standard is her claim that she’s being unfairly judged, when in fact the harshest judgments are precisely the ones that are spot-on. What 14-year-old boys currently think of Madonna is the ultimate truth of Madonna, and she prefers to try to deflect that or pretend it’s something else. But she made her bed etc.
That’s not what “double standard” means, but whatever - my bigger issue is, since when do we use the opinions of 14 year old boys as the basis for assessing the quality of pop culture icons for a generation and a half prior? Do we do it for every entertainer? If not, _that_ is a double standard.
(Are 14-year-old boys really the critics she’s responding to? Seriously?)
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/28 "2018-08-17T02:31:09Z")
The problem with Madonna using Spielberg and Picasso as counter-examples is that neither Spielberg nor Picasso’s skills (movie-directing and painting) have anything to do with physical appearance or are skills that are affected by aging (unless dementia or something similar comes along.) Not saying that the treatment Madonna gets is necessarily fair, but she is comparing apples to oranges.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/29 "2018-08-17T11:39:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> If present-day Madonna were time-shipped to Neolithic Europe, do you doubt that she’d have a plethora of eager, cave-dwelling suitors? I don’t.
If she gets to take one of her concert bras back with her, she could jump start the Bronze Age!
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/30 "2018-08-17T12:50:45Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#):
>
> Are Madonna’s shows primarily about music? If she wore my clothes (middle-aged male bargain-basement customer) and stood still and just delivered the songs, would her tours be a big success?
I’m not sure why you want her to wear boring men’s clothing while standing still and delivering a deadpan show. Would the Stones show be as much of a success if they all stood around wearing golf shirts and cargo pants, moving as little as possible while delivering their music? WTF is your point with this example?
> [@](#):
>
> I think she’s applying a double standard, producing shows that are mainly about sexual display and yet demanding to be taken seriously as an artist. If your show is about shaking your ass, you are going to be judged by the relevant standard, namely the crassest and cruellest “I’d hit that” vs “Not a chance, dude” standard. It’s not a standard that I invented, nor is it one I subscribe to - but the point is, Madonna DOES subscribe to it, despite her disingenuous protests.
Her shows are mainly about her music, which has been successful for more than thirty years, with some pageantry and eroticism added to it. They are not mainly about sexual display – where to you get that? Do you think it’s a strip show or something?
She is a serious artist and has reinvented herself, her style, and her music multiple times over the course of her very varied career. If you don’t like her music, that’s fine, but don’t say she’s not a serious artist. And, all of this is off the main point – male performers parade around half-dressed while prancing around the stage into their '60s and '70s. No one is telling Jagger or Kiedis they needs to be more discreet.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/31 "2018-08-17T15:47:00Z")
When I did a google search for “jagger still touring”, I get 2 ticket sites then this:
[The Rolling Stones are still on tour – something is very wrong with our culture](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/the-rolling-stones-are-still-on-tour-something-is-very-wrong-with-our-culture-1.3411507?mode=amp)
> [@](#):
>
> The Rolling Stones are coming to Ireland on May 17th with their harpsichords, hunting horns, bone-flutes, lutes and an entourage of serfs and retainers and lute technicians. They’ve been cosplaying as teenagers, wearing their big fibreglass Macnas heads, attempting to reclaim their lost humanity while craving the sweet release of death, or at least a bit of a nap, for over five decades now.
>
> Many of their contemporaries, Count John McCormack, Rod Hull and Emu, Lord Byron and O’Carolan the blind harpist, are gone, but this doesn’t stop Mick and his vassals from ignoring the advice of most gerontologists and bringing their nostalgic money-printing machine to Croke Park
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### Author:  [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/32 "2018-08-17T16:31:47Z")
Madonna can always hire young and attractive backup dancers, in case you’re worried about going to a concert and not seeing any T&A.
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### Author:  [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/33 "2018-08-17T16:54:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> When I did a google search for “jagger still touring”, I get 2 ticket sites then this:
> [The Rolling Stones are still on tour – something is very wrong with our culture](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/the-rolling-stones-are-still-on-tour-something-is-very-wrong-with-our-culture-1.3411507?mode=amp)
So it seems that the Rolling Stones get mocked in much the same way as Madonna does.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/34 "2018-08-17T17:17:47Z")
Well, it was pretty bizarre that people were using Jagger as an example. They must be living under a rock to not have heard multiple versions of “the Stones are super old and gross”.
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### Author:  [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/35 "2018-08-17T17:26:43Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#):
>
> Madonna can always hire young and attractive backup dancers, in case you’re worried about going to a concert and not seeing any T&A.
Maybe this post of yours has shown me why I really shouldn’t have posted anything in this thread. If I was offered free tickets to a Madonna concert, I’d be scrambling to find excuses so I could stay home…
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/36 "2018-08-17T17:33:26Z")
I must be living under a rock. Of course, Anthony Kiedis is much closer in age (56 vs 60) to Madonna than Jagger (75(!)).
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### Author:  [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/37 "2018-08-17T17:56:29Z")
Well, I haven’t been to a Madonna concert, and I probably won’t because I despise her as a human being and have for a long time. (Pretty much since her Letterman appearances).
However, IF I went to one, it would be because I like her music, which I do (her old stuff, at least), and to be able to say I did. I don’t deny that she’s a pop icon that deserves respect as an artist.
But I wouldn’t go to ogle over her or watch her shake her ass. You’d really have to be up close to appreciate that anyway, and from a distance she looks like any other woman. If she wants to do that, fine. Do it til you break a hip.
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### Author:  [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/38 "2018-08-19T21:24:20Z")
I saw a youtube video of her singing at a political rally sometime around the 2016 election. She sounded AWFUL. She sounds good (but not great) in studio recordings. She produced (or wrote or cowrote or whatever) some incredible songs. She got a lot of extra oomph from her looks. A guy wouldn’t. I guess it was sexist all along. The looks and youth of a female are a large part of most guys attraction to her. I guess that is almost “logically bad”. But what’s the remedy?
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### Author:  [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/39 "2018-08-20T06:02:37Z")
Madonna started genre of (for females) ‘musical productions’ starring an individual performer. Yeah, her voice was ok, but folks went to the concerts to see her perform an act, not sing a song or two.
Now we have Katy Perry, Pink and similar following in her footsteps…
I am personally not a Madonna fan, but admire her energy, her fortitude and her attitude. Sixty? YOU GO GIRL…you shake that tushie and flash those boobs for as long as you want to.
Haters gonna hate.
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### Author:  [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/40 "2018-08-20T16:41:40Z")
Madonna has always been about a sort of third wave feminism that asserts her control over her own sexuality, regardless of societal conventions that deemed flaunting it to be inappropriate. This is more of the same. She is saying that even at the age of 60 she is a sexual woman and she is going to behave like she likes and if you don’t like it you can go suck eggs.
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