# Aging While Female
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 16, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734 "2018-08-16T15:38:06Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/41 "2018-08-20T18:00:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#):
>
> Madonna has always been about a sort of third wave feminism that asserts her control over her own sexuality, regardless of societal conventions that deemed flaunting it to be inappropriate. This is more of the same. She is saying that even at the age of 60 she is a sexual woman and she is going to behave like she likes and if you don’t like it you can go suck eggs.
Well, of course. That is actually literally what she said in the OPs quote. My question is if you agree with the implied point that a 60 year old man that mooned the red carpet crowd would not have been judged.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/42 "2018-08-20T18:22:10Z")
Was Madonna’s fame/notoriety ever really based on her looks? I mean, she was never ugly, but nor was she all that super hot either (IMO). What she did do was exude a certain overt sexuality that was totally out of the ordinary for the time and medium. It was her schtick. That sort of thing was to Madonna what meat dresses and other weirdness was to Lady Gaga, for example.
I think the issue is that it’s not quite … on point for a woman of her age; she needs to update it instead of trying to pretend like what makes a 30 year old sexy is what makes a 60 year old sexy.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/43 "2018-08-20T19:16:31Z")
I keep seeing the thread title as “Aging White Female” and wonder if they’re really going to bring back Bridget Fonda for another go-round.
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### Author:  [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/44 "2018-08-20T19:34:51Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> Was Madonna’s fame/notoriety ever really based on her looks? I mean, she was never ugly, but nor was she all that super hot either (IMO). What she did do was exude a certain overt sexuality that was totally out of the ordinary for the time and medium. It was her schtick. That sort of thing was to Madonna what meat dresses and other weirdness was to Lady Gaga, for example.
Well, no disrespect to Lady Gaga (she is the better singer imo), but she did basically copy the Madonna playbook of self-promotion. And I don’t think quite as well (will people still be talking about Lady Gaga 30 years from now?). Madonna in her prime was extremely hot, quite good looking and sexy as hell. Lady Gaga? Eh.
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### Author:  [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/45 "2018-08-20T20:14:58Z")
I wouldn’t call Madonna a third-wave feminist so much as someone who crafted an image that deflected feminist criticism about objectifying women. For all her posing, she’s more opportunist than anything else. One example: she wasn’t slated to appear at the 2017 Women’s March in DC and only signed on when she saw how big it was going to be. By the time she came on, we were already marching away. And what did she perform? “Express Yourself,” a song about testing a boyfriend’s intentions that includes the lyrics “You need a big, strong hand to lift you up.”
And the fact she makes a lot of money on tours doesn’t mean she’s succeeding. Her fan base is aging, which is why her tours are still successful, even if her albums are not. Aging fans can afford to pay higher ticket prices. $110 million is a lot of money, but it’s only 1/3 of what her [2012 tour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_concert_tours#Highest-grossing_tours_of_all_time) grossed.
Her anti-ageism pose is really her fight to stay relevant. And ironically, she’s not advocating for women with naturally aging bodies to flaunt what they’ve got; she’s used plastic surgery and intense workouts to craft the kind of body that passes for younger.
I’m all for fighting ageism. That’s just not what she’s doing.
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/46 "2018-08-20T23:28:34Z")
Madonna thinks that being in “good shape” is a justification for flashing a crowd.
I’ll pass on that kind of body-shaming “feminism”, thank you.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/47 "2018-08-20T23:55:00Z")
Yeah, I’m all for ending sex based ageism but Madonna is in no frigging way the rally point.
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/48 "2018-08-21T03:54:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> If people are still willing to buy tickets to see Madonna, let her wag anything she likes.
Though Madonna has never been my thing, I did see her on HBO many years ago, and was actually impressed by some of the content. Instead of being just all brash and over-the-top pop, the performance seemed to veer into alt-pop or even rock. Many of the songs had spare arrangements, guitar-heavy but with a lot of space between the notes, and I always enjoy that kind of thing. I don’t follow her, so I have no idea if she’s grown creatively since then or not. But in any event, I don’t suppose what she does is what the average young pop music fan is after, anyway.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/49 "2018-08-26T00:25:23Z")
> [@Ashtura](#):
>
> Well, no disrespect to Lady Gaga (she is the better singer imo), but she did basically copy the Madonna playbook of self-promotion. And I don’t think quite as well (will people still be talking about Lady Gaga 30 years from now?). Madonna in her prime was extremely hot, quite good looking and sexy as hell. Lady Gaga? Eh.
Lady Gaga is also but one of many post-Madonna pop princesses that include Britney, Christina, Kesha, Katy, Gwen, so on and so forth.
Personally, I don’t want to hear people in the entertainment industry complaining about “ageism” or “sexism” or whatever. People in that industry get paid because of their sex appeal. And it is simply a fact of life that you lose your sex appeal as you get older.
Especially since the primary consumers of their product are typically teenagers and young people.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2018, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/50 "2018-08-26T10:18:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Lady Gaga is also but one of many post-Madonna pop princesses that include Britney, Christina, Kesha, Katy, Gwen, so on and so forth.
> Personally, I don’t want to hear people in the entertainment industry complaining about “ageism” or “sexism” or whatever. People in that industry get paid because of their sex appeal. And it is simply a fact of life that you lose your sex appeal as you get older.
>
> Especially since the primary consumers of their product are typically teenagers and young people.
That’s just an extremely limiting way to see the entertainment industry. The vast majority of it is not about sexual appeal. Just limiting it to musicians: are you attracted to all the musicians you listen to? Even the men?
The ageism in the industry is a sexist thing that applies to female entertainers much more. Older men are not usually judged in this manner, while older women are. If they don’t have surgeries to make them look younger, they can’t continue in their careers. There are exceptions, but just how many female actors, musicians, even comedians seemingly drop off the face of the earth. And, of the exceptions, how many didn’t have something done to make them look younger? Compare that with the men.
As for Madonna: she has the right to do what she wants. If she wants to be sexual, she can be. People have the right to say they aren’t attracted to that. And they have a right to decide that this means they aren’t interested in her show if they think it focuses too much on that.
But to try and control her by telling her what she can and can’t do? To tie up her entire worth into her attractiveness? Fuck that shit. If people keep attacking her in that way, then she gets to keep attacking back.
Chances are, that’s part of what the people who stick around like about her. I’m not attracted to her, nor am I into her music, but I admit that this is one thing I respect about her.
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### Author:  [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/51 "2018-08-26T11:24:33Z")
In defense of the press, I don’t recall anyone suggesting that Tina Turner switch to shorter skirts or lower heels.
That be said, while I have no desire to see Madonna’s derriere, I will defend her right to flash it.
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> She should talk to Helen Mirren.
I love Helen Mirren, but I bet Madonna is in better shape.
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> I was suggesting that attractiveness is correlated with fertility, which makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Therefore, since men are fertile at older ages than women are, it would make sense if nature dictated that men tend to retain attractiveness at older ages than women, too. The fact that men can play lead romantic roles at older ages is not directly related to fertility, of course, but it’s related to attractiveness, which is in turn naturally correlated with fertility (and therefore not entirely culturally-driven).
So, the power structure would have nothing to do with it? Sure, I’ll buy that.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/52 "2018-08-26T13:38:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> Most people who like to moon people aren’t doing it to show off how great their butt is. They do it because they’re drunk and/or stupid. So this is an example of Madonna doing something outrageous to draw outrage, then acting all defiant and empowered over it. It has been her very successful business plan for her entire career. Conflating this with very real issues of ageism/sexism is being played for a sucker.
Right on.
> [@bump](#):
>
> I think the issue is that it’s not quite … on point for a woman of her age; she needs to update it instead of trying to pretend like what makes a 30 year old sexy is what makes a 60 year old sexy.
This is a good point too.
People say there are men in their 50s and 60s who are still attractive. But are those men running around in mankinis?
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### Author:  [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/53 "2018-08-26T18:11:07Z")
> [@kambuckta](#):
>
> Madonna started genre of (for females) ‘musical productions’ starring an individual performer.
Nope. Cher did it before Madonna, and Josephine Baker back in the Twenties did it before that, and I know I’m missing some.
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### Author:  [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/54 "2018-08-27T07:31:31Z")
When David Bowie died, some commentators suggested that as well as being a popular and talented musician, he singlehandedly made good on the promises of personal freedom which emerged from the 1960s, and that our freedom to be as unconventional as we like is down to him being so publicly outrageous. It’s hyperbole of course, but contains an element of truth. Certainly, at the time, many commentators were convinced Bowie was a degenerate freak who should be ignored and forgotten.
Western society hasn’t really come to terms with the profound demographic changes which are leading to significant numbers of active and affluent old people. Madonna is also a popular and talented musician, like Bowie was. However, perhaps her true social significance and destiny will be to spend the 2030s doing for seventy-somethings what Bowie spent the 1970s doing for twenty-somethings: radically redefining what is possible and acceptable. If so, then everyone who says in 2018 that Madonna should just grow up and fade away because she is old and ugly are going to look pretty foolish.
One specific convention that Madonna could easily upend is the idea that old people don’t have sex. In reality, all those wrinkly old couples you know are doing it as often as they have the energy, for as long as one of them is fit enough to climb on top. Saying that Madonna shouldn’t flaunt her assets like younger women do has implications. Are we really saying that men in their fifties and sixties shouldn’t find women like Madonna sexually attractive, because we (that is I, since I am 52) should only be attracted to very much younger women? That doesn’t seem very progressive! (And isn’t going to work ;))
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/55 "2018-08-27T12:54:58Z")
Helen Mirren is 73 and an aging white woman. And sexy as hell. And gets portrayed as sexy as hell. The author has a point that there is a lot of ageism and sexism going on, but Madonna is Madonna - she has often pushed past the boundaries of class and good taste - even 30 years ago - and has been receiving criticism for it her whole life - that isn’t something that has come with age.
Other beautiful sexy women over sixty - Christie Brinkley, Susan Sarandon, Raquel Welch, Rene Russo…
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### Author:  [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/56 "2018-08-27T20:49:31Z")
> [@Sandwich](#):
>
> When David Bowie died, some commentators suggested that as well as being a popular and talented musician, he singlehandedly made good on the promises of personal freedom which emerged from the 1960s, and that our freedom to be as unconventional as we like is down to him being so publicly outrageous. It’s hyperbole of course, but contains an element of truth. Certainly, at the time, many commentators were convinced Bowie was a degenerate freak who should be ignored and forgotten.
>
> Western society hasn’t really come to terms with the profound demographic changes which are leading to significant numbers of active and affluent old people. Madonna is also a popular and talented musician, like Bowie was. However, perhaps her true social significance and destiny will be to spend the 2030s doing for seventy-somethings what Bowie spent the 1970s doing for twenty-somethings: radically redefining what is possible and acceptable. If so, then everyone who says in 2018 that Madonna should just grow up and fade away because she is old and ugly are going to look pretty foolish.
>
> One specific convention that Madonna could easily upend is the idea that old people don’t have sex. In reality, all those wrinkly old couples you know are doing it as often as they have the energy, for as long as one of them is fit enough to climb on top. Saying that Madonna shouldn’t flaunt her assets like younger women do has implications. Are we really saying that men in their fifties and sixties shouldn’t find women like Madonna sexually attractive, because we (that is I, since I am 52) should only be attracted to very much younger women? That doesn’t seem very progressive! (And isn’t going to work ;))
Well said!
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/57 "2018-08-27T23:42:56Z")
> [@Icarus](#):
>
> Well said!
No, he should be horsewhipped for comparing the musical abilities of Madonna and Bowie.
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### Author:  [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/58 "2018-08-28T14:20:29Z")
Well to be fair, I think most older acts tend to tone down their performances now. Long gone are the guitar smashing and jumping around on stage they used to do. Heck even Elvis stopped swinging his hips as he aged.
I like how their was a movement in the 90’s for the “Unplugged” bands to just play their music. No dancers. No smoke. Just music.
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### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aging-while-female/819734/59 "2018-08-29T01:00:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> So it seems that the Rolling Stones get mocked in much the same way as Madonna does.
I remember calling their Steel Wheels tour the Steel Wheelchairs tour. And that was in 1989. They’ve been old for a long time
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