# Agnosticism is goofy.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 11, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352 "2007-10-11T15:05:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 19
### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/361 "2007-10-19T15:24:05Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
How about when no human intelligence is involved, such as snowflakes forming? Is it self evident that an intelligence is needed to form a snowflake?
[/QUOTE]
I love snowflakes, some say no two are alike, but I haven’t seen them all so I can’t prove no two are alike. Shame, no scientist would ever agree with me. Scientists are trained to doubt everything they haven’t proved by scientific methods. Skepticism takes the place of seeing the beauty of intelligent design in each fragile flake of ice perfectly formed into stars of perfect white. They think me a romantic, head in the clouds, mind lost in imagination, while only they know the real world, harsh, cold, pityless piles of snow blocking their familiar path to the lab.
---
### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/362 "2007-10-19T16:06:00Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I love snowflakes, some say no two are alike, but I haven’t seen them all so I can’t prove no two are alike. Shame, no scientist would ever agree with me. Scientists are trained to doubt everything they haven’t proved by scientific methods. Skepticism takes the place of seeing the beauty of intelligent design in each fragile flake of ice perfectly formed into stars of perfect white. They think me a romantic, head in the clouds, mind lost in imagination, while only they know the real world, harsh, cold, pityless piles of snow blocking their familiar path to the lab.
[/QUOTE]
That made no sense at all.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/363 "2007-10-19T17:08:29Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I love snowflakes, some say no two are alike, but I haven’t seen them all so I can’t prove no two are alike. Shame, no scientist would ever agree with me. Scientists are trained to doubt everything they haven’t proved by scientific methods. Skepticism takes the place of seeing the beauty of intelligent design in each fragile flake of ice perfectly formed into stars of perfect white. They think me a romantic, head in the clouds, mind lost in imagination, while only they know the real world, harsh, cold, pityless piles of snow blocking their familiar path to the lab.
[/QUOTE]
You are lying. If you ever bothered to read Dawkins, or Gould, or Sagan, you’d know that scientists appreciate the beauty of the universe just fine - even more for understanding it. Understanding how evolution “designs” things is far more wonderful than some designer doing it. If you think that your god cares about \*\*Mindfield’\*\*s drink, you had better explain why he doesn’t care about children dying. Your god is a monster. I’m glad no one else believes in him.
You should maybe stop talking about stuff you have no clue about, and try to find out stuff, and not think that your tiny little experiences constitute all of reality. You must think that anyone who disagrees is lying.
---
### Author:  [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/364 "2007-10-19T17:31:56Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan]
That made no sense at all.
[/QUOTE]
Did you honestly expect it to?
He says
> [@](#):
>
> but I haven’t seen them all so I can’t prove no two are alike
and then one sentence later
> [@](#):
>
> Scientists are trained to doubt everything they haven’t proved by scientific methods.
and doesn’t see the weapons grade irony. You could just save time and respond to each and every one of his posts with a copy and pasted ‘No, you do not understand what you are talking about and have misrepresented it in an attempt to bolster your own beliefs.’ That’s not a bad idea actually.
---
### Author:  [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/365 "2007-10-19T17:43:36Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager]
You are lying. If you ever bothered to read Dawkins, or Gould, or Sagan, you’d know that scientists appreciate the beauty of the universe just fine - even more for understanding it. Understanding how evolution “designs” things is far more wonderful than some designer doing it.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly how I feel also.
I tried googling up some quotes, and I found [this webpage](http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6406713/Conversations-with-Carl-the-many.html) which quotes Carl Sagan:
> [@](#):
>
> He told Interview that “there’s something terribly beautiful, austere, glorious, majestic about the fact that the same laws apply everywhere.”
> [@](#):
>
> “If you look into science,” he told Edward Wakin in a 1981 interview, “you will find a sense of intricacy, depth, and exquisite beauty which, I believe, is more powerful than the offerings of any bureaucratic religion.”
Another wonderful article I found is [Ann Druyan Talks About Science, Religion, Wonder, Awe . . . and Carl Sagan](http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-11/ann-druyan.html):
> [@](#):
>
> It is a great tragedy that science, this wonderful process for finding out what is true, has ceded the spiritual uplift of its central revelations: the vastness of the universe, the immensity of time, the relatedness of all life, and life’s preciousness on our tiny planet.
> [@](#):
>
> Why do we separate the scientific, which is just a way of searching for truth, from what we hold sacred, which are those truths that inspire love and awe? Science is nothing more than a never-ending search for truth. What could be more profoundly sacred than that? I’m sure most of what we all hold dearest and cherish most, believing at this very moment, will be revealed at some future time to be merely a product of our age and our history and our understanding of reality. So here’s this process, this way, this mechanism for finding bits of reality. No single bit is sacred. But the search is.
> [@](#):
>
> What I find disappointing about most religious beliefs is that they are a kind of statement of contempt for nature and reality. It’s absurdly hubristic. It holds the myths of a few thousand years above nature’s many billion-yeared journey. It says reality is inferior and less satisfying than the stories we make up.
---
### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/366 "2007-10-19T19:50:07Z")
In the morning you could see the two camps of warriors. They were far apart preparing for the battle. The defensive armour was being brightly polished, while the barbs on their spears and swords were sharpened to cut hair. They practiced their charges, yells, and insults. No one knew who the winner would be save I – it was ignorance.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/367 "2007-10-19T19:51:35Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
In the morning you could see the two camps of warriors. They were far apart preparing for the battle. The defensive armour was being brightly polished, while the barbs on their spears and swords were sharpened to cut hair. They practiced their charges, yells, and insults. No one knew who the winner would be save I – it was ignorance.
[/QUOTE]
I’m glad your side won.
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### Author:  [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/368 "2007-10-19T19:51:40Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
In the morning you could see the two camps of warriors. They were far apart preparing for the battle. The defensive armour was being brightly polished, while the barbs on their spears and swords were sharpened to cut hair. They practiced their charges, yells, and insults. No one knew who the winner would be save I – it was ignorance.
[/QUOTE]
Was that an admonishment or an admission?
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### Author:  [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2007, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/369 "2007-10-20T02:11:50Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
In the morning you could see the two camps of warriors. They were far apart preparing for the battle. The defensive armour was being brightly polished, while the barbs on their spears and swords were sharpened to cut hair. They practiced their charges, yells, and insults. No one knew who the winner would be save I – it was ignorance.
[/QUOTE]
No, you do not understand what you are talking about and have misrepresented it in an attempt to bolster your own beliefs
_Hey, it works fine!_
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/370 "2007-10-20T14:07:29Z")
The imprudence of fools and mad men:
Don’t believe anyone, all are self-deluded and liars,
only I know the truth and the way,
I am divine, I am king, I am master, I am superior, I am the one that knows,
I am the only one, only I am worthy to control the minds of men.
How many time has this weary world heard this kind of nonsense,
and each time slapped it into oblivion.
---
### Author:  [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/371 "2007-10-20T14:14:46Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
The imprudence of fools and mad men:
Don’t believe anyone, all are self-deluded and liars,
only I know the truth and the way,
I am divine, I am king, I am master, I am superior, I am the one that knows,
I am the only one, only I am worthy to control the minds of men.
How many time has this weary world heard this kind of nonsense,
and each time slapped it into oblivion.
[/QUOTE]
Are you calling yourself a fool and a mad man? Do you know what irony is?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/372 "2007-10-20T14:34:31Z")
If no one has any further points to make regarding agnosticism or atheism, I am willing to close this (now) silly thread down.
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### Author:  [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/373 "2007-10-20T14:59:45Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
If no one has any further points to make regarding agnosticism or atheism, I am willing to close this (now) silly thread down.
[/QUOTE]
It would be a kindness. Might harm your evil mod rep though.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2007, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/374 "2007-10-21T05:00:13Z")
Please kill the thread and put us out of our misery. FWIW I will still think you are a great guy Tom…even if you ARE an evil mod. 🙂
-XT
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### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/375 "2007-10-23T11:46:16Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I think that it is impossible not to see evidence that God exists. There are over six billion people who have no problem with the existence of God. Where there is smoke there is fire…
Now if we are talking about material existence of God, as if He is walking down the street shaking hands then probably no…
Again if we are looking for His footprints then we have the world to look at, I can never believe the order this world exhibits comes from chaos or randomness, in an accidentally fashion, and if it did, where pray tell did the chaos or randomness disappear to…
Most people know that God is personal, you experience God with your heart (feelings). Some have experienced God and others have not, no big deal. I can’t understand how some atheists feel the need to attack God, just a simple yes or no will do. Why bury your lance into the windmill to show your manhood or womanhood or whatever…
It just isn’t that big a subject, the big subject is who are you? And how is the best way to live and survive in this jungle called life.
[/QUOTE]
Because the majority believe something doesn’t make it true or prove anything, there was a time that most people believed the earth was flat and the center of the universe. So because many or all people believe something is not proof. There is a vast difference between fact and belief. What one may call an expeiience of God may be just a day dream to another. We tend to believe what we “Hope” is true.
Monavis
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2007, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnosticism-is-goofy/422352/376 "2007-10-23T12:34:00Z")
Oh, no you don’t. This mess had been sinking slowly into the quagmire and I was simply waiting foe **Mosier** to signoff on killing it. However, if you want to pick a fight with **lekatt** on exactly the same point that has already been stated and ignored multiple times in this thread, I am shutting it down without waiting (since it has been five days since Mosier posted–only to rue the destruction/hijack of the thread).
[/Moderating]
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