Even using your second definition of agnosticism, one would still have to be an atheist or a theist. Most theists I know are agnostics by that definition in that they aren’t of the type that believe there is evidence for a 6000 year old Earth or that there is evidence for the reliability of the Bible; they admit that their belief is based on faith.
I think the only atheists that “insist on defining a gap between their views and those of the atheist” aren’t actually doing that, but insisting that the definitions are different than theists with an agenda keep insisting.
There is a proof of color, even to the believers, but no proof of a God to anyone, it is only by a belief; they say it is God, even the word God has different meanings to different people, Your example is not showing that many people see different shades of red. One’s God is a contradiction to another’s God. Color has different shades but it can still be called red without contradiction, where as the Word “God” has different meanings to different people.
Complete horseshit. But pretty much what the OP was driving for.
:rolleyes: Where do you get this shit from? What century are you living in? Atheists are despised by ‘most of the population’ in America? Do you have a cite to back up this incredible statement?
Even if it were true, why would you think the general population would mark a distinction between agnostic and atheist when its like pounding on a brick wall to get some of the more rabid atheists on THIS board to understand the difference?
What a load. Do you have a cite for this persecution of atheists by the general population? That atheists don’t marry, have poor jobs, are distrusted, blah blah blah. Sounds like one of your standard Der Trihs fever dreams to me.
Why don’t I believe in god? Because it’s really far fetched and there is zero evidence that there is a god. There is also zero evidence for brain-eating zombies, faeries and men with adamantium claws who can heal extremely fast.
If you show me proof of god, brain-eating zombies, faeries or men with adamantium claws who can heal extremely fast, I will change my opinion. I find it offensive that you have to give equal time to numbskulls who believe in utterly stupid things like anthropomorphic spirits in space who love you, but are ready to burn you forever if you covet your neighbor’s wife.
It isn’t being stubborn to disbelieve something with no proof. Do you believe that an invisible, intangable ninja is following you at all times, waiting to shuriken you do death at the slightest provocation? That’s ludicrous. If you believe that with no proof you’d be an idiot.
An agnostic says, “Well, I don’t disbelieve in invisible ninjas, zombies or the like. I guess there’s no way to know.” I’d say that’s goofy.
My wife’s grandfather almost was ready to disown her because I wanted a secular wedding. Anecdotal, but for what it’s worth.
A co-worker once asked what church I go to. I told him I don’t believe in god and he honestly looked afraid. He mumbled something about, I’d change when I got older.
Assuming the study is legit (I assume it is), then my answer (besides saying thanks for the cite) is…so what? Personally I have never encountered any of that kind of thing. My own inlaws (and my heavily religious family for that matter) look at me oddly, yet despite the fact that I’m a self proclaimed agnostic and they are heavy duty Catholics (and also despite the fact that they are blue collar Germanic types and I’m, um, not), there was never any resistance when we got married.
Even if there WAS, I still don’t care. I believe what I believe…not because of some silly fear of the American people mobbing me over my belief or lack there of, but because its how I think. Agnostics aren’t cowardly atheists…they think about the question in a different way.
I was trying to vary it for illustrative effect. Would you concide that
An agnostic says, “Well, I don’t disbelieve in and invisible, intangible spirit who judges us based on an ancient moral code and will torture us forever if we don’t do as he wants. I guess there’s no way to know.” I’d say that’s goofy.
Well, no. How about XT, the agnostic says "Well, the existence of god or God is unknowable so a final judgment can not, in good faith, be made at this time. We simply do not have sufficient data to completely dismiss the possibility. For MY part (and completely based on my own BELIEF) I do not think that an all powerful god exists or is likely…however, I concede that we really don’t know enough to be sure. Infinite universe and all that.
Oh yeah…and anyone who says that they KNOW there is no god/God is pretty much goofy.
Er…and finally, atheists dress funny and are really not cool. They smell too…with their noses. Agnostics on the other hand get all the chicks. So there."
Do you concede that, “the existence of brain eating zombies or Zombies is unknowable so a final judgement can not, in good faith, be made at this time. We simply do not have sufficient data to completely dismiss the possibility.” is just about as reasonable a stance as the agnostic version? Because we don’t really know that there aren’t zombies, right?
I don’t believe in god or zombies. I could be convinced otherwise with proof, but if you allow the one, I’d say you really have to allow the possibility of the other.
Well I don’t see an need to get all personal. Goofy head.
Leaving out the nonsense characters and talking about God, I can’t understand why being honest is goofy. You certainly don’t have proof of non-God. Billions of other people seem to have proof enough for them to believe in God. I think agnostics are a lot more honest than atheists.
No, I’d say the Hispanic thing threw them off much more than the religious aspects. They pretty much know that I don’t believe in their religion and that I have big doubts about the whole god thingy too.
No…because there isn’t even anecdotal evidence about your ‘brain eating zombies’…at least not on the scale we are talking about religion. There are millions (billions) of people who believe in god/God/whatever. This belief has gone back before pre-history. The evidence for ‘brain eating zombies’ is much more sparse. I will concede that in an infinite universe there is a possibility for ‘brain eating zombies’…but that it’s a VERY low order of probability. Somewhere around the Easter Bunny populated planet, or the Planet of Big Breasted and Phat Bottomed Love Muffins.
God (or the concept of a higher being) is a few steps above that…though still improbable in my opinion.
In an infinite universe anything is possible. So…both ARE allowed. However, we simply don’t have enough data to make a final judgment either way. Like the possibility of space aliens, or alien life on other planet (intelligent or otherwise) we can merely speculate. Anyone who says they know for sure is (like our pal Der up thread, or like many atheists I know personally), to put it simply, being inaccurate.
Really? They don’t know if they believe or not? Sure they don’t know if a god exists or not, but they sure as hell should know if they believe in it. The default of course is no.
But that is the question of knowledge, not that of belief. One can agree on the state of knowledge and disagree on what one should believe based on this. One can pose any number of questions the answer to which is unknowable, (such as what’s beyond the event horizon) but does it make sense to believe in a hypothesized entity there?
I suspect that if one strips away the typical overblown rhetoric of its author, there is a kernel of truth in a more modest statement that folks in the U.S. are more distrustful of atheists (as a group) than of any other group (including Muslims, although, perhaps not of (imagined) Satanists).
People who have had no contact with any gen-u-wine atheists (especially if they have been raised in strongly Evangelical communities) may have a bit of fear of atheists, based mostly on the fact that they are wholly ignorant of any real atheists and are reacting to fairly silly claims from similarly ignorant people.
However, claims that atheists are the “most hated” are silly. I can drag up any number of news articles on people being harrassed or their property vandalized because they were Jewish or Muslim or Catholic or the “wrong sort” of Christian, but I cannot recall any actual physical violence directed at a person for simply not believing in a god.
This is exactly the kind of theist statement I’ve been talking about. lekatt seems insistent that atheists by definition must be certain no gods exist, not just be without belief they do.
Just in case you really don’t get it:
Atheists don’t need proof that gods don’t exist to be without belief that they do or to believe that they don’t and still be honest. I’m sure you don’t believe invisible unicorns exist or you may even believe that they don’t. There’s nothing dishonest about this position.
