[QUOTE=askeptic]
I don’t know jim. I wasn’t offering the definition as the correct one but merely to demonstrate that there is apparently no agreed definition. Apparently agnostic means diferent things to different people. That is fine. But that being the case it is goofy to say that agnostics believe X because aparently some agnostics believe Y while others believe 9.
[/QUOTE]
Ok, cool, this I agree with, I was confused over your point, my fault. This whole middle ground between Atheist and Religious seems very muddled. Maybe we are just people that cannot be pidgeon holed.
What Exit, how about actually answering my questions?:
And we don’t know enough about the origins of religions to conclude they were made up?
Would ‘invisible unicorns’ work better for you than Santa?
Wouldn’t it be a little too much of a coincidence that incredible beings that people made up actually exist despite knowing there seems to be plenty of evidence for things working fine without the supernatural being invoked?
What does the amount of data have to do with it? Again, are there any holes in your logic that Santa (invisible unicorns) don’t exist to be a belief system?
How can one belief of something not existing be part of a belief system?
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
You probably missed it, but your last sentence just made my point for me that Atheism is yet another belief system.
[/QUOTE]
Belief system?
[QUOTE=Septima]
Agnostics lack belief. Atheism requires you do believe, without a doubt, that there is no God. I am an Agnostic beacause I doubt everything, both the existence and the non-existence of God. I am incapable of belief either way. There is no faith in me. So there is a difference, and a big one at that.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure I see a great deal of difference. We can’t “know” anything for sure, so when I say I “know” that God doesn’t exist, I say that in the same way that I “know” Dinosaurs (the non-avian kind) are extinct. We’ve spent a great deal of time looking for both, and come up empty.
But I think it’s important to differentiate between being atheistic wrt some generic Supreme Being and being “atheistic” wrt the Judeo-Christian God (and the associated afterlife for human beings, saints, miracles, etc.). If an agnostic can’t throw off the details of the particular religion that is dominant in our culture, but is willing to throw off the particulars of other religions (some of which he probably doesn’t even know about), then I’m not sure that person is really an agnostic.
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
What Exit, how about actually answering my questions?:
And we don’t know enough about the origins of religions to conclude they were made up?
Would ‘invisible unicorns’ work better for you than Santa?
Wouldn’t it be a little too much of a coincidence that incredible beings that people made up actually exist despite knowing there seems to be plenty of evidence for things working fine without the supernatural being invoked?
What does the amount of data have to do with it? Again, are there any holes in your logic that Santa (invisible unicorns) don’t exist to be a belief system?
How can one belief of something not existing be part of a belief system?
[/QUOTE]
I did answer your questions.
One more time, I don’t believe in any religion, that does not mean there is not a Divine Being(s). How many times do you want me to say this?
The IPU is better than Santa, except I know the origin of the IPU and FSM. The are nothing but ligical arguments. The ultimate irony would be if the Divine Being turned out to be the IPU. That would be a good joke on everyone.
See #1
It is possible that Santa exists, just not as Coke & Hallmark have us envisioning him. Maybe he really is nothing but a Spirit of Good Will and Patron of Capitalism. Not likely, but possible.
5)You yourself just called it a belief, a few posts ago.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
Ok. I’ve heard otherwise, and not just in this thread.
“It may not be unknowable, but I, personally, don’t know.”
Phrase it this way: “I know that we can’t know anything about god.”
[/QUOTE]
One problem with the “I don’t know” definition is that theists can say they don’t know that there is a god, but believe, by faith, that there is one. That’s a perfectly legitimate position. Atheists can say the same thing in reverse. So the “I don’t know” position covers a lot of ground. In fact we can probably refute claims of knowledge on either side. I have in the past (not here) argued against atheists claiming they could prove no god existed. (We might be able to prove that certain definitions of god are logically contradictory, though.) Unknowability, however, does say something interesting, if not supportable.
One more time, I don’t believe in any religion, that does not mean there is not a Divine Being(s). How many times do you want me to say this?
[/quote]
You didn’t answer the question. Read it again. I didn’t ask you if you’re a believer or not.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
See #1
[/quote]
You didn’t answer the question.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
It is possible that Santa exists, just not as Coke & Hallmark have us envisioning him. Maybe he really is nothing but a Spirit of Good Will and Patron of Capitalism. Not likely, but possible.
[/quote]
And once again you don’t answer the questions.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
5)You yourself just called it a belief, a few posts ago.
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
You didn’t answer the question. Read it again. I didn’t ask you if you’re a believer or not.
You didn’t answer the question.
And once again you don’t answer the questions.
And again, not answering the question.
Well, that was fun.
[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? I answered each of your questions. You apparently do not like the answers.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Well maybe that is a bad phrase, but …
You believe without being positive. To me that is belief. Atheism is not a religion, that is rather obvious, however it is a belief.
Jim
[/QUOTE]
Strong atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. Weak atheism is neither. Do you object to the concept that we may not have beliefs one way or another about something? If I point to a random star, and ask you if you believe it has planets, what will you say?
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
You’re making a blanket statement about all atheists that isn’t true. Being without a belief is not a belief.
[/QUOTE]
But, I see it as a belief that God does not exist. Therefore it is a belief. Why are you so hung up on this one point anyway. I get it, you don’t believe in God. I actually respect your point of view. I don’t have enough conviction to make such a statement and be truthful.
I just don’t understand this insistence that Atheism is not a belief.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
Strong atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. Weak atheism is neither. Do you object to the concept that we may not have beliefs one way or another about something? If I point to a random star, and ask you if you believe it has planets, what will you say?
[/QUOTE]
I think I backed off the phrase “belief system” in the post you quoted. If not, then I do so now.
If you point at a random star and ask me if I believe it has planets, I would first want to determine what star it is, find out its distance from us, determine if it is one of the few stars that we have found planets to be orbiting. As the odds are that this is not a star whose system we know about, I would come back with…
“At this time, we haven’t got a clue. We are just beginning to learn what stars have planets, and so far, mainly Gas Giants only. I cannot answer your question and at this point neither can Science.”
So what was your point? I missed it. Are you comparing Atheism to knowing which stars have planets? I guess I am a Planetary Agnostic. Given any random star, I am likely to say, I don’t know.
