Agnostics--could you more precisely state your position?

[martu]

@xtisme

I’ve already addressed this. No, I don’t BELIEVE in a God or gods or other deities. I’m not, however, 100% sure that my believe reflects reality…i.e., there COULD be a God, gods or other deities or supernatural beings out there and I just don’t know about them. Uncertainty is pretty much the key difference. I’m uncertain…therefore I’m an agnostic. If I was 100% certain then I’d be an atheist.

My distaste for the label stems mostly from atheists railing against me on this seemingly simple point.

You can’t redefine words just because some people annoy you. You are an atheist by any definition of the word you care to choose. You do not have to 100% certain to be an atheist.

[XT]

[QUOTE=Jas09]
That’s really not the definition of agnosticism. But at this point so many people use it as a substitute for the type of “weak” atheism you are describing that the battle is probably lost.

To determine whether you are agnostic you should ask yourself this question: “Do you believe that the existence of God can be known for certain?”

If the answer is Yes, then you are not agnostic. If the answer is No then you are agnostic. It really doesn’t have much bearing on the personal probability you assign to the existence of God - that determines where you are on the atheist/theist scale.

Quite a few people just use “agnostic” to mean “non-evangelical atheist” at this point. Or perhaps just “atheist that doesn’t want to piss of theists” or “atheist that isn’t 100% sure”. None of those things really track with the historical meaning of the word, but there ya go.
[/QUOTE]

Here’s one definition from a quick Google search:

a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

According to Wiki, here are some of the types of agnostics:

Types of agnosticism

Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories. Variations include:

Agnostic atheism
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.
Agnostic theism
The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.
Apathetic or pragmatic agnosticism
The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.[16]
Ignosticism
The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable.[17] A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept “a deity exists” as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against.
Strong agnosticism (also called “hard,” “closed,” “strict,” or “permanent agnosticism”)
The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities, and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, “I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you.”
Weak agnosticism (also called “soft,” “open,” “empirical,” or “temporal agnosticism”)
The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, “I don’t know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, when there is evidence, we can find something out.”
Spiritual Agnostic
Agnostics who follow a devoted practice to traditionally religious spiritual practices in the absence of the knowledge of God while being irreligious.

-XT

[XT]

[QUOTE=martu]
You can’t redefine words just because some people annoy you. You are an atheist by any definition of the word you care to choose. You do not have to 100% certain to be an atheist.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not redefining any word here. To be an atheist you DO have to be certain that there is no God…otherwise you aren’t an atheist, by definition. Instead, you are what Dawkins calls a “de facto atheist”. Or, an agnostic, though what label people self apply is entirely up to you. I think ‘de facto atheists’ is a bit unwieldy for me, while ‘agnostic’ is a lot easier. YMMV.

-XT

[Czarcasm]

@Dangerosa

As an agnostic, I do not believe that anyone can know if god or gods exist.

This statement sticks in my craw-you are declaring with absolute certainty that if a deity exists it cannot make itself known, even if it so chooses.

[Jas09]

Quite right, xt, and I have no doubt that the “weak agnosticism” you seem to hold is one of the most prevalent.

Personally I don’t find much use for it as it doesn’t seem to be any different than “weak atheism”. It has a bit of the flavor of a cop-out to me, but obviously that impression is more of a personal thing than a definitional one. Probably coming form multiple people trying to tell me I was “just” agnostic when I told them I was no longer a believer.

[XT]

[QUOTE=Jas09]
Quite right, xt, and I have no doubt that the “weak agnosticism” you seem to hold is one of the most prevalent.

Personally I don’t find much use for it as it doesn’t seem to be any different than “weak atheism”. It has a bit of the flavor of a cop-out to me, but obviously that impression is more of a personal thing than a definitional one. Probably coming form multiple people trying to tell me I was “just” agnostic when I told them I was no longer a believer.
[/QUOTE]

I’d actually put myself in the Agnostic Atheists category there (it’s reflected in my board title as well): atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. I simply self label as agnostic for my own, personal reasons.

I’m in sort of the same boat as you, just that the ‘multiple people trying to tell me I was “just” and’ atheist were generally atheists…on this board. Often in insulting and condescending ways.

-XT

[martu]

@xtisme

I’m not redefining any word here. To be an atheist you DO have to be certain that there is no God…otherwise you aren’t an atheist, by definition. Instead, you are what Dawkins calls a “de facto atheist”. Or, an agnostic, though what label people self apply is entirely up to you. I think ‘de facto atheists’ is a bit unwieldy for me, while ‘agnostic’ is a lot easier. YMMV.

-XT

No you don’t, here is Dictionary.com’s definition of an Atheist:

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

nothing about knowing for sure there isn’t a God.

Where can I find this definition of atheist that clearly states that you DO have to be certain there is no God?

[Czarcasm]

@martu

No you don’t, here is Dictionary.com’s definition of an Atheist:

nothing about knowing for sure there isn’t a God.

Where can I find this definition of atheist that clearly states that you DO have to be certain there is no God?

Same problem here. Using xtisme’s definition a true atheist would have to be omniscient so as to obtain absolute knowledge that God doesn’t exist.

[XT]

[QUOTE=martu]
nothing about knowing for sure there isn’t a God.
[/QUOTE]

Did you look up the definitions of ‘denies’ and ‘disbelieves’? As with agnosticism, there are various sub-definitions and degrees, however, and you can see in this thread that some folks who self identify as ‘atheists’ actually could be as easily categorized as ‘agnostic’ (and vice versa…or Dawkins ‘de facto atheist’ thingy).

-XT

[Novelty_Bobble]

@xtisme

I’m not redefining any word here. To be an atheist you DO have to be certain that there is no God…otherwise you aren’t an atheist, by definition.

You are flat out wrong here and you don’t get to define what people mean when they use a word.

Atheism for me simply means a lack of a belief in a god or gods. Anyone who fits into that category can call themselves an atheist. That is a perfectly correct usage of the word backed up by common usage, defined in pretty much any dictionary and online source you care to mention and also obvious from the construction of the word itself.

Some may go further than that and makes claims about what they know for certain but labelling oneself an atheist doesn’t demand it, nor imply it.

[Dangerosa]

@Czarcasm

This statement sticks in my craw-you are declaring with absolute certainty that if a deity exists it cannot make itself known, even if it so chooses.

You are right, although its possible that when a deity exposes himself as a deity, we will redefine what god means. The whole definition of god, spirituality and the supernatural comes into play. Once known and "understood"is it still supernatural?

[XT]

[QUOTE=Novelty Bobble]
You are flat out wrong here and you don’t get to define what people mean when they use a word.
[/QUOTE]

Yet atheists types seem pretty confident in getting to define what I mean when I use the word agnostic. See the amount of hackles rising when I categorically define a term that doesn’t fit well with the labels that folks self apply and their image of what those labels mean? Interesting, isn’t it?

(Just as food for thought, consider what me saying that atheists think something is 100%, after I’ve already said that I don’t believe ANYTHING gets to that level)

-XT

[Czarcasm]

@Dangerosa

You are right, although its possible that when a deity exposes himself as a deity, we will redefine what god means. The whole definition of god, spirituality and the supernatural comes into play. Once known and "understood"is it still supernatural?

If not known, does it exist at all? I’m sorry, but your definition is a declaration that all events recounted in all holy books and stories where deities have made themselves known to mortal man are automatically false. Bear in mind that atheists at least ask for evidence of such encounters, whereas your version of agnosticism dismisses such without thought.
Care to rethink the “cannot know” part of your definition?

[martu]

@xtisme

Did you look up the definitions of ‘denies’ and ‘disbelieves’? As with agnosticism, there are various sub-definitions and degrees, however, and you can see in this thread that some folks who self identify as ‘atheists’ actually could be as easily categorized as ‘agnostic’ (and vice versa…or Dawkins ‘de facto atheist’ thingy).

-XT

One can deny or disbelieve something without being 100% sure of your position.

And no when it comes to what atheism means there are really no sub definitions, just answer this question:

Do you believe in a God or God(s)?

If you answer yes you are not an atheist, if you answer no you are.

[GEEPERS]

@The_Bith_Shuffle

In my experience, it’s hard to tell just what somebody who is “agnostic” is uncertain about.

Do they mean that they think there’s a 50% chance that there’s a Christian God who hates homosexuals?

Do they think there’s a remote chance that an Abrahamic God exists, but probably not?

Do they think there’s got to be something supernatural, but they have no idea what it is, and it might not really be a god?

What I’m getting at is that within the whole banner of “agnosticism” there seems to be a full gamut of stances that are not all that similar. Some of them would seem reasonable to me, and some wouldn’t.

I myself call myself an “atheist” because I think there’s a 0% chance of an Abrahamic God existing. I think there might be some sort of other God that exists, but I find it ridiculous to think such a being would have a human-like mind.

Anyway, if you consider yourself an agnostic, just what is it you’re uncertain about, and how uncertain?

Is there anyone on this forum whois NOT an atheist? What gives? Atheists are such a small minority in the population.

[rat_avatar]

@dataguy

What’s wrong with the simple, accepted, lexical definitions:

theist - one who believes in the existence of a god or gods
atheist=non-theist

gnostic - possessing intellectual or esoteric knowledge of spiritual things
agnostic=non-gnostic

People enjoy arguing past each other about non-intersecting concepts.

This is the way most theologians I have spoken to think of it, although that is limited to a sample size of three.

[Marley23]

@GEEPERS

Is there anyone on this forum whois NOT an atheist?

You’ve spoken to posters who aren’t atheists. We do have a large number of atheists here, and since you’ve mostly been posting about God and religion, you’ve been hearing from them.

[Czarcasm]

@GEEPERS

Is there anyone on this forum whois NOT an atheist? What gives? Atheists are such a small minority in the population.

As you have been told several times before in other threads, there are a wide variety of beliefs(and non-beliefs) represented on this board. Why do ask questions over and over again that have already been answered?

[Morgenstern]

@GEEPERS

Is there anyone on this forum whois NOT an atheist? What gives? Atheists are such a small minority in the population.

I’ve been here 5 years, and lurked for a year or two while the board was ptp, and in that time I’ve come to the conclusion that the atheists are merely more vocal. The Theist have long ago given up participating in such threads.

[XT]

[QUOTE=martu]
One can deny or disbelieve something without being 100% sure of your position.
[/QUOTE]

And one can deny and disbelieve something with 100% certainty of your position. It all depends on whether, when you make your denial or disbelieve known, you caveat it with some level of uncertainty.

And no when it comes to what atheism means there are really no sub definitions, just answer this question:

I’m sorry, but you are wrong. Atheists themselves acknowledge subcategories ranging from strong verse weak to intricate tables of various degrees of denial and disbelief.

If you answer yes you are not an atheist, if you answer no you are.

-XT