# Agnostics, what would make you believe in God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572 "2005-07-28T13:16:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/141 "2005-08-01T15:59:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Technically, agnosticism is the belief that it is not possible to know whether God exists. It is not an direct opinion on the existence of God, but a position about what it’s possible to know. Strictly speaking, one can be agnostic and still be atheistic ot theistic. In popular usage, agnosticism gets used to indicate that a person is undecided or does not have a strong opinion one way or the other- a position that is probably more accurately defined as weak atheism. Okay, so if I feel but don’t believe there is a supreme being(s) and don’t believe in the established churches. But believe that a very major event could possibly occur that could possibly convince me, what is the proper terminology other than confused. I have incorrectly been calling myself an agnostic for most of my life. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/142 "2005-08-01T16:01:32Z")
I don’t know what the term for that would be. However, you must use the right term, or something horrible would happen!!! But really, lighten up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/143 "2005-08-01T16:23:05Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Okay, so if I feel but don’t believe there is a supreme being(s) and don’t believe in the established churches. But believe that a very major event could possibly occur that could possibly convince me, what is the proper terminology other than confused. > I have incorrectly been calling myself an agnostic for most of my life. Technically, you’d be a “weak atheist.” That just means you are without a belief in God but that you also don’t have a positive belief that there _isn’t_ a God. A belief that God definitely _doesn’t_ exist is “strong atheism.” Weak atheism gets so commonly confused and conflated with agnosticism that I’m not even sure if the distinction is more than a pedantic one any more. I self-identify as agnostic rather than weak atheist myself because, ironically, people will generally infer my position more accurately from the technically incorrect term than from the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/144 "2005-08-01T16:27:18Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I don’t know what the term for that would be. However, you must use the right term, or something horrible would happen!!! > > But really, lighten up. Das Cool, because I was still planning to call myself Agnostic or I could go back to the old Navy one. On our dog tags they want to code our religion. Nice very old lady didn’t know what agnostic meant and couldn’t code it. _(I was 18 she was probably in late 50’s but seemed very old at time) \* She decided Agnostic same as Atheist. I didn’t like this, asked if they had any other category. She actually consulted another, even older lady (_ Possible she had been doing this from WWII)\* and together came up with NA. In this case meant non-affiliated. I was comfortable with that. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/145 "2005-08-01T17:00:02Z")
> [@Snag](#): > > Indeed, just because a being might be able to create a universe – and theoretically it’s been suggested that new universes could be created with artificial black holes or vacuum fluctuations — there are no guarantees that such a being has complete control over it once it was created. Maybe we could use god to refer to creator of local universes, and God to refer to originator of Everything. God would be omniscient, omnipotent…etc. Whereas god is just a powerful entity. The question is, does god exist, and is it God? > [@](#): > > Yet even if God can do anything, It may not. For instance, it’s possible that this is one grand experiment made to be observed but not interfered with by the creator. Omniscience abolishes the need for observation. And if god is not omniscient, it is not omnipotent, either, although it may be sufficiently powerful and knowledgable. > [@](#): > > I suggest that we might be more likely to find subtle signs as there certainly do not seem to be any overt proof of such a being. Maybe the curtains just haven’t been drawn. After all, Christ did not, supposedly, deliver his message till 2000 years ago. > [@](#): > > It’s likely that we might only find such proof indirectly because trying to find something that may encompass multiverses may at best have indirect effects on our universe. Many scientists think that anything outside of our universe cannot have any effect on it. But others are looking at possibilities such that gravity may be leaking in and out of our universe. For instance ‘shared gravity’ might explain some of the missing dark matter that is supposed make up the vast majority of our universe. > > Likewise finding something like a multi-dimensional being may take ages before having any idea how to test in order to confirm the existence of such higher dimensions, much less an occupant thereof. All of this, misses the point. You are relying on science and logic to detect divinity. In the end, they won’t still help you decide whether the subtle sign you’ve found is divine or just another aspect of the natural universe. Like I have said earlier, we are interested in God, primarily for the purpose of teleology. So, the [only](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6415523&postcount=8) way to know God uncontroversially is if God programmes us to believe in it, and removes all mechanisms for doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/146 "2005-08-02T12:25:52Z")
> [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Since you bring up this pet peeve of mine (that is, your [Arthur C. Clarke quote](http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/776.html)) I’d like to note that I have always considered this quote the height of stupidity, really unworthy of a person of Clarke’s stature. In truth, any technology, no matter how advanced, is always clearly distinguishable from magic. Oh? Perhaps for people with a conceptual basis for understanding that a) there is such a thing as technology, b) technology is different than magic, c) everything is technology and d) if you can find a human cause, it’s not magic, e) everyting that’s not nature has a human cause, then perhaps your theory applies, but: I think that there were many cultures in the past that weren’t aware of certain items being mere technology rather than magical (e.g. South Americans who had never seen metal armor, guns or horses before or even that episode of _Bewitched_ where they went back in time and were almost burned at the stake in Salem because the pilgrims didn’t understand matches…). ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/147 "2005-08-02T14:38:20Z")
> [@Snag](#): > > In other words **Priceguy** , the ant will never have the intellectual capacity to really understand the definition of what a human is, so it’s understanding of you will never be anywhere close to complete. Even though it has pretty solid evidence that you exist. And you do exist in the same physical space as the ant. Exactly. The ant may never understand me, but it can know that I exist. > [@](#): > > Now try kicking it up a few levels to understanding an entity that may be as physically invisible to us and unknowable to us by nature as the future is. And it also understands far more information than any of us could possibly imagine. How do we comprehend its existence or purpose? You said it was trying to reveal itself to us. I pointed out that it’s doing a poor job. It has nothing to do with comprehending its existence or purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/148 "2005-08-02T16:39:25Z")
If God is omnipotent, he can make himself understood, no problem. I’ve never been able to buy that “puny humans can’t understand God” meme. If he can’t explain (and JUSTIFY) himself to me in a way that I can understand then I’ve got no use for him. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/149 "2005-08-02T18:55:21Z")
It has been my experience that if one really wants to know about God. His intent is honest and his desire strong, then he will. If he don’t particularly care or is atheistic then he won’t ever. This is during the normal activity of life. But sometimes life gets really scary or really hard, and that causes more people to want to know about God. It is always in the hands and responsibility of the individual to seek or not to seek. However at the end of life, everyone knows. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/150 "2005-08-03T02:52:09Z")
It would have to be a meeting in the flesh, so to speak. Face-to-face with a demonstration of powers that would convince me. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/151 "2005-08-03T03:16:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If God is omnipotent, he can make himself understood, no problem. I’ve never been able to buy that “puny humans can’t understand God” meme. If he can’t explain (and JUSTIFY) himself to me in a way that I can understand then I’ve got no use for him. Hm. — We can’t assume that God is omnipotent in a technical sense (re: problem of evil). — I can’t fully understand fluid mechanics (or my xgf for that matter); the idea that I could fully understand God seems ludicrous. ( OTOH, “Puny humans can understand the smallest aspect of God”, would be an odd argument for those who want Him to be a large part of their lives.) — Er. I know lots of people who won’t justify themselves to me. Some are quite useful. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/152 "2005-08-03T03:33:13Z")
At least you know they exist and they don’t ask you to do absurd things like worship them or kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/153 "2005-08-03T03:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t fully understand fluid mechanics (or my xgf for that matter); the idea that I could fully understand God seems ludicrous. Can God zap your brain and make you understand fluid mechanics? If so, then why can’t he make you understand God. If he’s not omnipotent then he’s not God, he’s just some punk with ego issues. No, if God wants anything from me he’s going to have to explain it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/154 "2005-08-03T05:12:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’ve got no use for him. Once again, precisely. You are a fairly hard atheist (despite your self characterization as agnostic), because a god concept has no utility for you. There is virtually no evidence that could convince you other than being forced to believe by having God zap your brain and remove your free will (assuming it actually exists, but that’s another ongoing debate! :)) The other end is occupied by the Leakatts, whose entire worldview depends upon their god concept. God has a lot of utility for them. Their entire value system depends upon that belief and fear of punishment in an afterlife. No amount of evidence could convince them that God does not exist. Anything that disputes that belief in any way is suspect at best. The point (and I do have one) is once again just that no amount of imaginable evidence could convince an agnostic that God exists. The issue is just not an evidentiary one. It is one of utility. What would convince the agnostic is experiencing a strong utility for possession of a god belief. Proverbially the no atheist in a foxhole concept. One looks if one has a need and if one has a need one will believe. No need, no search, no belief. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/155 "2005-08-03T05:14:13Z")
----Can God zap your brain and make you understand fluid mechanics? Beats me: I’m an agnostic. ----- If so, then why can’t he make you understand God. Say he could: he may not want to. For example, full knowledge of God would make me a rather different being, doncha think? I agree though that, “Mortals can’t understand God”, has the air of an all-purpose explanation/excuse. ----- If he’s not omnipotent then he’s not God, he’s just some punk with ego issues. I’d say that if He created the Universe then He has claim to the God title. Though perhaps others (Others?) may as well. Furthermore, if you accept the existence of evil, then God can’t be omnipotent and omnibenevolent at the same time. So pure omnipotence isn’t really a necessary characteristic of God. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/156 "2005-08-03T05:31:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The issue is just not an evidentiary one. It is one of utility. What would convince the agnostic is experiencing a strong utility for possession of a god belief. Where does Truth fit in? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/157 "2005-08-03T05:45:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The point (and I do have one) is once again just that no amount of imaginable evidence could convince an agnostic that God exists. I have listed 2 broad scenarios whereby I might believe that God exists. > [@DSeid](#): > > The issue is just not an evidentiary one. It is one of utility. What would convince the agnostic is experiencing a strong utility for possession of a god belief. Proverbially the no atheist in a foxhole concept. One looks if one has a need and if one has a need one will believe. No need, no search, no belief. What Gyan said. My belief meter has covered a fairly broad range concerning God, UFOs, ESP, the efficacy of macroeconomic intervention, punctuated equilibrium driven by meteor crashes and I presume other topics. Perhaps I experience utility from tough-but-fair-minded analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/158 "2005-08-03T06:04:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You are a fairly hard atheist (despite your self characterization as agnostic), because a god concept has no utility for you. I hate to make this an issue of semantics, but it seems to me that you want to label him (and, I guess, everyone else) as either an agnostic, theist, atheist, or whatever, when in fact people can be more than one. You can be agnostic and be either a thest, an atheist, or neither, if you so desire. Of course, the definitions vary pretty widely. Some people define an atheist as someone who, like you said here, is simply “without a god concept”, which does not necessarily take into account whether the person believes God exists. And of course, others say an atheist is someone who does not believe God exists, and from there we can quibble about the differences between strong and weak atheism, and so on…but it’s hardly consequential. Then again, you might not have been suggesting that he can’t be both an atheist and an agnostic at the same time, so maybe I just wasted my time by posting this garbage. Personally, I used to be a strong theist. Now I’m what I’d call a “realistic theist”, and I doubt I’ll ever be as strong a believer as I once was - short of a divine revelation or something, you know. (I know some of you would take issue with that, but chances are I’d take issue with you as well.) After reading this thread, I’m silently pitting a handful of hypocrites, assholes, self-righteous pricks, and some people who are all three. I’d pit these people properly, but I don’t have the time and they probably wouldn’t read it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/159 "2005-08-03T06:37:49Z")
So much for Christian charity. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572/160 "2005-08-03T06:54:17Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > So much for Christian charity. Hey, I understand where you’re coming from. But why do people jump on a theist when he lashes out at those that criticize him, citing a cliché like “turn the other cheek” or “being a good Christian” or something else that applies to us but not to them? It’s crap, that’s what it is. And I’m not attacking you here, I promise - but why did you assume I’m a Christian? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agnostics-what-would-make-you-believe-in-god/314572.md?page=9)