# Agree or disagree with Obama but he is providing some leadership. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747 "2009-02-28T02:22:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/81 "2009-03-02T13:34:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Obama took 3 days to sign it so yes, they had time to ACTUALLY READ THE BILL. Who can read - let alone understand - 1100 pages of leagalese? ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/82 "2009-03-02T15:56:58Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Who can read - let alone understand - 1100 pages of leagalese? Um… I would HOPE a member of congress would have that ability… I mean, they are all _lawmakers_, and many of them used to be lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/83 "2009-03-02T18:02:45Z")
> [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](#): > > Does anyone else think it’s completely reasonable to be able to read a 1,100 page document in 4 days? > > That’s not even counting the possibility of having your aides read it for content you’d be specifically interested in knowing about. Further edits to the bill would amount to what? A few more pages? > > Because if an 1,100 page document is too long for our congress, I wonder what kind of dunderheads we elected to run the country. An 1100 page novel, or biography, or popular science book, no problem. But have you ever read legalese? Judging from bills and laws Dopers have linked to, reading that much stuff in 4 days is well nigh impossible - and they have other things to do also. I review 800 page technical books, and if I tried to read them in four days my head would explode. However, I wonder how much of this bill is boilerplate, and how much of it is real content. Forget about reading a bill in 4 days - who could write one? It’s easy if most of it is cut and pasted. Any Dopers read bills for work? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/84 "2009-03-02T18:03:58Z")
> [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](#): > > Um… I would HOPE a member of congress would have that ability… > > I mean, they are all _lawmakers_, and many of them used to be lawyers. Have you ever read a patent? These guys don’t write good English. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/85 "2009-03-02T18:07:10Z")
well if anyone has a lot of free time and actually wants to read the summary of the statute you can go here: > **[American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009)** > > The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) (Pub. L..mw-parser-output .sr-only{border:0;clip:rect(0,0,0,0);clip-path:polygon(0px 0px,0px 0px,0px 0px);height:1px;margin:-1px;overflow:hidden;padding:0;position:absolute;width:1px;white-space:nowrap}Tooltip Public Law (United States) 111–5 (text) (PDF)), nicknamed the Recovery Act, was a stimulus package enacted by the 111th U.S. Congress and signed into law by President Barack Obama in February 2009. Developed in response to the Grea... or if you have LOTS of free time you can read the actual text of the statute here: [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/American\_Recovery\_and\_Reinvestment\_Act\_of\_2009](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009) ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/86 "2009-03-02T18:21:37Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > He’s twisting his supporters and his political enemies in knots because he is making bold moves, bold statements and providing his detractors with little ammunition while not pandering. > . Bold statements were worthless. I’ll grant you that the stimulus was a bold move. However, it was basically already on the table even when Bush was still in offense, it was just delayed to to the lame duckness of people in Congress and the President. Still, I’ll give it to you. But _not pandering_??? Come on! The entire stimulus bill plus the spending bill he just signed was basically a checklist of government donations to his supporters. How is that not pandering? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/87 "2009-03-02T18:45:40Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Poppycock and balderdash. I’d like for you to provide what you think qualifies as “a lot” of campaign promises on which he’s reneged thus far. Here…I’ll even give you one – he’s loosened his “no lobbyists” rule. Clearly, you’re in possession of a long list of others, and it should be no problem to share it with the rest of the class. Right? [These guys count two broken promises.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/) Plus six “compromises” (including the lobbyist rule) and one “stalled” promise, measured against 16 promises kept, 27 in progress and 458 yet to be addressed. Not bad for less than two months’ work. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/88 "2009-03-02T19:08:03Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [These guys count two broken promises.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/) Plus six “compromises” (including the lobbyist rule) and one “stalled” promise, measured against 16 promises kept, 27 in progress and 458 yet to be addressed. > > Not bad for less than two months’ work. That’s a _fantastic_ site, thank you. Of the 2 “broken” promises, it looks like $3K tax credit would never have gotten through. And, from what I remember, that’s probably a good thing. For the other item (5 days on the web for review before voting), I’d personally cut them some slack…after all, _any_ amount of public review is more than existed before, so _any_ level of meeting the promise is good. (Not that that’s an excuse.) I wonder if a promise can move from “broken” to another classification? For instance if, 6 months from now, every bill actually does appear on the website 5 days prior to voting. At any rate, thank you again for the [c|s]ite! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/89 "2009-03-02T19:14:08Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Remember here is a guy who got elected to the Senate then spent his time in the Senate doing nothing but going on a trip to Kenya at taxpayer expense, running for president and NOT voting for the Iraq war. You’ve said this many times, and been disproven every time. Don’t say stuff you know isn’t true. > [@Sinaijon](#): > > But not pandering??? Come on! The entire stimulus bill plus the spending bill he just signed was basically a checklist of government donations to his supporters. How is that not pandering? Because you saying it doesn’t make it true. Prove that the stimulus bill is money for Democrats, and I’ll shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/90 "2009-03-02T20:30:11Z")
> [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > well if anyone has a lot of free time and actually wants to read the summary of the statute you can go here: > > [American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009) > or if you have LOTS of free time you can read the actual text of the statute here: > > [American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 - Wikisource, the free online library](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009) Thanks. I found a pdf version of the bill [here](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1enr.pdf). 407 pages with lots of white space. Much of the stuff I glanced through was a dollar amount for a particular item with lots of boilerplate. Looking at a spreadsheet of how the money was divided up would give you all the information much more quickly. Anyone reading this entire thing has entirely too much time on their hands. Were they looking for an easter egg or something? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/91 "2009-03-02T22:14:12Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Leading people down a wrong path is nothing to be proud about and following anyone blindly because your mesmorized by him is to 1930s dictator-like for me. Hmmmm, like the past eight years? There was a lot of “that” going around, but when it’s your guy it’s a different thing??? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/92 "2009-03-02T23:26:44Z")
as for reading the thousand some odd page rescue plan. set the way-back machine… there was a congressman or senator that got into huge amounts of trouble for paying a woman (or a few women) large amounts of money to “read legislative briefs and bills” while wearing high price foo-foo lingerie at an upscale hotel. i’m sure the thing got read by aides or whomever (see above) in the employ of the representative or senator as usual, and boiled down to the high and low points in a brief of a lesser amount of pages. that is the norm. rare is the person in the house and senate that actually reads the bills for themselves. i’m sure no one really believes that … say… sen byrd reads every bill that is presented in the senate or in front of the committees he is on. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/93 "2009-03-02T23:34:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > An 1100 page novel, or biography, or popular science book, no problem. But have you ever read legalese? Judging from bills and laws Dopers have linked to, reading that much stuff in 4 days is well nigh impossible - and they have other things to do also. I review 800 page technical books, and if I tried to read them in four days my head would explode. > > However, I wonder how much of this bill is boilerplate, and how much of it is real content. Forget about reading a bill in 4 days - who could write one? It’s easy if most of it is cut and pasted. > > Any Dopers read bills for work? Well, at my last job I analyzed business transportation problems. All solutions were summarized into a 1 or 2 page proposal. Many of the projects involved customer data downloads consisting of millions of lines of data that had to be broken down into useable groups of data. An 1100 page spending bill can be summarized into a spreadsheet with (at minimum) 5 columns that include: item, location, date range of implementation, cost, and credit (tax reduction). From there it can be broken down by queries to show where the money is going. This is an easy project for data analysts and could have been done in an afternoon. There is no reason why a member of Congress could not have this bill reduced into an easily discernable summary that could be used to make a decision. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/94 "2009-03-03T00:26:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well, at my last job I analyzed business transportation problems. All solutions were summarized into a 1 or 2 page proposal. Many of the projects involved customer data downloads consisting of millions of lines of data that had to be broken down into useable groups of data. An 1100 page spending bill can be summarized into a spreadsheet with (at minimum) 5 columns that include: item, location, date range of implementation, cost, and credit (tax reduction). From there it can be broken down by queries to show where the money is going. This is an easy project for data analysts and could have been done in an afternoon. > > There is no reason why a member of Congress could not have this bill reduced into an easily discernable summary that could be used to make a decision. Any reason to think that most of them didn’t do exactly this? That way they could make an informed decision without reading the bill. I handle numbers all the time, and if I were doing it I’d be having aides modifying the spreadsheet as the committee discussions were proceeding. So, to get back to our theme, there is nothing in the rush for a vote to prevent a congressperson from understanding the bill at the level of detail needed, so if anyone voted out of ignorance, it isn’t Obama’s fault. I suspect those on both side of the aisle voted out of ignorance or by being pressed by the various Whips. Such is politics. In any case, getting this sucker through counts as leadership in my book, no matter the cluefulness of the members. He has also seemingly outsmarted the Republicans. By offering a bipartisan process, and having it rejected, the American public seems to believe that the Republicans voted against it out of politics, not principle. Outfoxing the opposition counts as leadership also. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/95 "2009-03-03T00:33:59Z")
To anyone that is making an issue over “actually reading” an 1100 page bill: When making an investment or buying a stock did you “actually read” every word in the prospectus or the offering? Did you maybe just read the summary an/or have somebody explain it to you? Some blowhard Senator that says it can’t be read or “nobody” read it is throwing out a lot of political posturing to cover their own ineptitude. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/96 "2009-03-03T03:08:51Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Don’t be a putz. Do not post personal insults in **Great Debates**. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/97 "2009-03-03T03:12:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The election is over and yes, I think it’s creepy. Have you ever watched Fox News? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/98 "2009-03-03T06:02:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, to get back to our theme, there is nothing in the rush for a vote to prevent a congressperson from understanding the bill at the level of detail needed, so if anyone voted out of ignorance, it isn’t Obama’s fault. . Obama promoted the bill by flying around the country holding rallys. He was quite specific about the need to pass it immediately. So yes, you can lay the blame of rushing through the bill squarly at his feet. > [@Voyager](#): > > I suspect those on both side of the aisle voted out of ignorance or by being pressed by the various Whips. Such is politics. > . If nobody read it then it would have been input from the whips who decided the outcome. However, there were something like 40 Democrats who didn’t vote for it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/99 "2009-03-03T06:18:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Obama promoted the bill by flying around the country holding rallys. He was quite specific about the need to pass it immediately. So yes, you can lay the blame of rushing through the bill squarly at his feet. And if he didn’t, you’d say he was stuck in the Washington bubble. He, being popular, can go to all sorts of places, not just safe ones like military bases like some presidents I can mention. As for rushing it, there is a lot for Congress to do, and it does not help the country to get bogged down at step one. FDR did lots in the first hundred days, and it is seen as a good thing. We’ve established that anyone who wanted to could have gotten the meat of the bill, especially because it took a few days at least to pass and negotiate, so I don’t see what you’re complaining about. I realize that any bill you don’t like is going to be rushed, even if it takes a month. > [@](#): > > If nobody read it then it would have been input from the whips who decided the outcome. However, there were something like 40 Democrats who didn’t vote for it. Nobody read the whole thing, which I still say is wise. Plenty of them read more than enough. And I’m sorry that we Dems are not in lockstep. We don’t do a night of the long knives bit on those who vote otherwise - especially when we have plenty of votes. (Note that in the Senate all Dems voted for it.) In California the six Republican reps who voted to keep the state from collapse are being savagely attacked by their fellow party members. People are seeing that Republicans don’t give a crap about them. I hope they keep it up, so America can get on track again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747/100 "2009-03-03T06:41:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And if he didn’t, you’d say he was stuck in the Washington bubble. No, I would be singing his praises for stopping Congress from spending money like drunken sailers. > [@Voyager](#): > > Nobody read the whole thing, which I still say is wise. I’m still going with no on that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agree-or-disagree-with-obama-but-he-is-providing-some-leadership/487747.md?page=6)