# Agreement for framework for Iran nuclear deal reached **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648 "2015-04-02T19:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/241 "2015-04-09T16:02:53Z")
[Patrick L. Smith writes:](http://www.salon.com/2015/04/08/neocons_get_desperate_the_real_reason_why_iran_deal_drives_the_right_wing_nuts/) > [@](#): > > Between now and June 30, when a comprehensive agreement is to be signed, the conversation will be all about the proper terms, of course. The principle questions, among very many, will be these: > > • Is the staggered sunset in the preliminary framework—various clauses expire from 10 to 25 years out—enough? Isn’t permanent disarmament the object? > > • Is the inspections regime properly comprehensive—granular in its provisions? Will we know if Iran breaks its word? > > • Iran’s nuclear infrastructure remains in place. Is this not exactly what the Western powers set out to destroy? > > There are answers to each of these. Very quickly: > > • Yes, a quarter of a century is more than enough. As I will explain, it is a tribute to the patience and flexibility of Iran’s negotiators in Lausanne and its leaders in Tehran that they have accepted this schedule, never mind one more extensive. Even as is it extends far beyond their legal entitlement. > > • The inspections regime is the most intrusive any nation has ever accepted. No need to take my word for it. Take that of Adm. Michael Mullins, the former Joint Chiefs chairman, who told Charlie Rose on the eve of the accord that it is more, even, than Washington asked of the Soviet Union during the later Cold War period. > > • Any argument that the desired deal was supposed to destroy Iran’s nuclear program conclusively is 1) straight-out fallacious and 2) straighter-out stupid. There is no ground—legal, political, diplomatic, altogether rational—for this expectation. > > “This deal… formalizes Iran’s status as an eventual nuclear-threshold state by allowing it to maintain a vast nuclear infrastructure,” Jeffrey Goldberg, the neoconservative commentator at the Atlantic, wrote Saturday. “This was not part of the international community’s original plan, and it is a worry.” > > This is sheer mischief on Goldberg’s part. First, Iran would never accept the dismantling commentators of this stripe advocate. The point has been to alter its purposes. Second, only the U.S. and Israel, and no one else, has seriously entertained the thought that Iran can be stripped of all rights to a nuclear program as enjoyed by numerous other nations. > > Finally, in the unimaginable event those negotiating with Iran forced this condition into the pact, then it would be time to worry: We would all have to reread Keynes on the Versailles Treaty, for a Middle East variant of the calamity that awaited Europe after the 1919 settlement would lie ahead. There is _ressentiment_ enough among the Iranians, Mr. Goldberg, more than a century of it—and most of it perfectly justified. With 1930s Germany in mind, you want more now, not less? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/242 "2015-04-09T16:05:05Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > \*And in this case, the _acceptable_ outcomes for all parties are fairly broadly understood. Except by the American RW, which appears persistently oblivious to the fact that eliminating Iran’s nuclear infrastructure was never on the table nor could have been nor should have been, see above. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/243 "2015-04-09T17:52:05Z")
There is a large part of the RW who think a simple “bomb, bomb Iran” mission could fix any such problem. They think there would be no repercussions either, and that’s the worrisome part. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/244 "2015-04-09T18:08:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Iran just made an impossible demand: removal of all sanctions as soon as a deal is signed: > > [http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/09/politics/iran-nuclear-bill/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/09/politics/iran-nuclear-bill/index.html) > > This not only goes against what the President was willing to offer, which would require new concessions on our part, but it’s also something the President can’t deliver. The President has the power to relax some sanctions, but not all. It’s not an “impossible demand”. It’s what Iranians claim was agreed to in the “framework agreement”. It just shows that what Obama presented as “framework agreement” exists only in his head. There is actually no signed document that anyone can point to, thus what the Iranians consider to be in the “agreement” is quite different from what Obama claims is in it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/245 "2015-04-09T18:32:18Z")
We’ve gone from “the framework deal is terrible and will result in global catastrophe” to “the framework deal _doesn’t exist_”. Great job, guys! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/246 "2015-04-09T18:57:56Z")
The Iranians want sanctions lifted as early as possible with the fewest conditions as possible and with the least possibility of “snap-back” as can be obtained. _Of course_ their opening position is “lift the sanctions while the ink is drying on all the signatures,” even as they understand that’s not how the final deal will work. Why that position should surprise or dismay anyone politically canny enough in the first place to realize it’s impractical is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/247 "2015-04-09T20:08:20Z")
The Iranians who comprised our opposite numbers in this deal also have war-freaks to deal with, just as we do. Their war-freaks are convinced that if it came to war, Allah would ride to the rescue and protect Iran. They _want_ a war, they see no advantage in avoiding one, and will bend every effort to sabotage any peaceful intentions. We have our own. Not as many of ours depend on the terrible fire of God’s mighty sword, but the principle is quite similar. There, as here, men of good will are being accused of treason, cowardice and atheism. And men of good will, of whatever faith, of whatever complexion, are all that stand between the innocent and the Darkness. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/248 "2015-04-09T20:35:42Z")
Its pretty funny that our war hawks are saying the same thing that the Iranians are. I’m sure they completely miss the irony though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/249 "2015-04-09T21:45:48Z")
[Most of the Arab states are all for this, BTW.](http://www.thenation.com/blog/203857/can-arab-world-live-us-iran-nuclear-deal) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/250 "2015-04-09T21:48:28Z")
I can see a lot of advantage to be had from a generous hand in lifting sanctions, especially consumer goods. Maybe a series of small concessions, not tied to any demands on our part, but as a gesture of good will to the Iranian people. Let them see more carrot, less stick. Let them see that every step towards peace is rewarded. They\* vote\* there, that’s important. Often, when the people lead, the leaders follow. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/251 "2015-04-09T22:45:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Iranians who comprised our opposite numbers in this deal also have war-freaks to deal with, just as we do. Their war-freaks are convinced that if it came to war, Allah would ride to the rescue and protect Iran. They _want_ a war, they see no advantage in avoiding one, and will bend every effort to sabotage any peaceful intentions. You wouldn’t happen to have any one of those cite thingies to back up that assertion, would you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/252 "2015-04-09T23:02:42Z")
I believe one is entitled to offer an assessment that is derived largely from one’s own ruminations on a widely scattered field of information. I believe they call that “having an opinion”. As I understand it, one is not required to cite authority when voicing an opinion, a suggestion as to how a situation might best be appraised. Your mileage might vary. And I might care. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/253 "2015-04-09T23:10:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I believe one is entitled to offer an assessment that is derived largely from one’s own ruminations on a widely scattered field of information. I believe they call that “having an opinion”. As I understand it, one is not required to cite authority when voicing an opinion, a suggestion as to how a situation might best be appraised. > > Your mileage might vary. And I might care. [How quickly we forget.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16932957&postcount=435) But perhaps you also forgot which forum we are in. GD, not IMHO. If you can’t or won’t back up your assertions, that is your choice. But do not act as if that is not what this forum is for. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/254 "2015-04-09T23:55:25Z")
I stand by the quoted words. And, as Eugene V. Debs is my witness, I don’t get what your problem is, here. Not that I’m anxious to, just that I don’t. I clearly make reference to the paucity of reliable sources and the fog of biases. That’s a given, yes? So, I reference the lack of definitive sources, and you rag on me to provide them? Huh? Further, if you have issues with my Board behavior, there are procedures, and they require neither my permission nor my approval. Freak freely. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/255 "2015-04-10T00:05:23Z")
For what it’s worth, I share elucidator’s opinion and I’m surprised John Mace doesn’t agree with it. This is a nation that supports worldwide terrorism more than any other country and has sponsored attacks in places Al Qaeda hasn’t even bothered with(such as Argentina). The kinds of people who would not only do that, but are successfully keeping discussion of Iran’s terror networks off the table, are probably not the kinds of people interested in peace. I’d also note that given what’s actually on the table, Iran’s warhawks are giving up nothing whatsoever that really matters to them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/256 "2015-04-10T00:18:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The kinds of people who would not only do that, but are successfully keeping discussion of Iran’s terror networks off the table . . . As it should be, of course. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/257 "2015-04-10T00:26:23Z")
Clearly, there is some peace movement in Iran, or they wouldn’t be anywhere near the table. Based on my authority as Queen of Romania, I got a nickel says they are the young and the better educated. The future, demographically speaking. And we don’t have to win their hearts and minds, all we need for now is to move fingers away from triggers and safeties to “on”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/258 "2015-04-10T00:47:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Clearly, there is some peace movement in Iran, or they wouldn’t be anywhere near the table. Based on my authority as Queen of Romania, I got a nickel says they are the young and the better educated. The future, demographically speaking. > > And we don’t have to win their hearts and minds, all we need for now is to move fingers away from triggers and safeties to “on”. You mean like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Green_Movement)? > [@](#): > > The Iranian Green Movement refers to a political movement that arose after the 2009 Iranian presidential election, in which protesters demanded the removal of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad from office. Green was initially used as the symbol of Mir Hossein Mousavi’s campaign, but after the election it became the symbol of unity and hope for those asking for annulment of what they regarded as a fraudulent election. Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi are recognized as political leaders of the Green Movement.[1] Hossein-Ali Montazeri was also mentioned as spiritual leader of the movement.[2] > > The Green Movement protests were a major event in Iran’s modern political history and observers claimed that protests were the largest since the Iranian Revolution of 1978-1979.[3][4][5] > [@](#): > > The Green Path of Hope > Main article: The Green Path of Hope > > Mousavi and other reformist leaders are now working in peaceful and legal methods to widen the influence of their reforms. They have set up a new coalition named “The Green Path of Hope”. Iranian political parties and movements need to be authorized by the Interior Ministry. Mousavi neither recognizes the current government as legitimate nor is likely to receive permission; so, the movement was named a “path” in order to bypass this law.[48] If so, then yeah…there certainly was and still is a large movement in Iran opposing a lot of the actions of the Iranian government. Trouble is: > [@](#): > > Government actions > Arrests > See also: Law enforcement in Iran and Human rights in Iran > > On the weekend of 13 and 14 June, in a series of raids across Tehran, the government arrested over 170 people, according to police officials.[32] Among them were prominent reformist politicians, including Mojahedin of the Islamic Revolution Organization (MIRO) founder Behzad Nabavi, Islamic Iran Participation Front (IIPF) leader Mohsen Mirdamadi, and former president Mohammad Khatami’s brother Mohammad-Reza Khatami, who was later released.[33][34][35] Also arrested were Mostafa Tajzadeh and Mohsen Aminzadeh, whom the IRNA said were involved in orchestrating protests on 13 June.[35] Anonymous sources said that the police stormed the headquarters of the IIPF and arrested a number of people.[13][36] Iranian journalist Mashallah Shamsolvaezin claimed that presidential candidate Mir-Hossein Mousavi was put under house arrest, although officials denied this.[37] An estimated 200 people were detained after clashes with students at Tehran university, although many were later released.[38] > > Acting Police Chief Ahmad-Reza Radan stated via the state press service on the 14th that “in the interrogation of related rebels, we intend to find the link between the plotters and foreign media”.[39] A judiciary spokesman said they had not been arrested but that they were summoned, “warned not to increase tension,” and later released.[40] Intelligence minister Gholam Hossein Mohseni-Ejehei linked some arrests to terrorism supported from outside Iran, stating that “more than 20 explosive consignments were discovered”.[41] Others, he said, were “counter-revolutionary groups” who had “penetrated election headquarters” of the election candidates.[41] > > On 16 June, Reuters reported that former vice-president Mohammad-Ali Abtahi and former presidential advisor Saeed Hajjarian had been arrested.[42] Human rights lawyer Abdolfattah Soltani, who had been demanding a recount of all votes, was also arrested on the Tuesday according to Shirin Ebadi, who said that security officials had posed as clients.[43] Over 100 students were arrested after security forces fired tear gas at protesters at Shiraz University on the same day.[38] Reporters Without Borders reported that 5 of 11 arrested journalists were still detention as of 16 June, and that a further 10 journalists were unaccounted for and may have been arrested.[38] > > On 17 June, former foreign minister and secretary-general of the Freedom Movement of Iran, Ebrahim Yazdi, was arrested while undergoing tests at Pars hospital in Tehran.[38][44] He was held overnight in Evin Prison before being released and returning to hospital, where according to Human Rights Watch he remained under guard.[45][46] In Tabriz, other Freedom Movement activists and eight members of the IIPF were arrested, with reports of at least 100 civic figures’ arrests.[38] The total number of arrests across Iran since the election was reported as 500.[38] > > Aaron Rhodes, a spokesman for the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran, stated that “Iranian intelligence and security forces are using the public protests to engage in what appears to be a major purge of reform-oriented individuals whose situations in detention could be life-threatening”.[38] In Isfahan Province, prosecutor-general Mohammadreza Habibi warned that dissidents could face execution under Islamic law.[47] But, yeah, I agree with you (assuming I can parse through whatever your position is and have accurately judged what that might be…always a tenuous thing)…we should encourage such groups, and one way to do that is through dialogue and perhaps the lifting of sanctions, which actually hit the regular people in Iran harder than it hits the elite and the hard core types. I think that what Obama is doing has potential, and I hope it goes somewhere, though the last I read about this (granted, that was Monday) the whole thing seemed pretty precarious, with both sides seemingly claiming different things had been agreed upon. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/259 "2015-04-10T01:00:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > For what it’s worth, I share elucidator’s opinion and I’m surprised John Mace doesn’t agree with it… On reflection, I wholly renounce my previous position and fully endorse whatever it was that **John Mace** was saying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/260 "2015-04-10T01:42:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > On reflection, I wholly renounce my previous position and fully endorse whatever it was that **John Mace** was saying. You don’t understand what a request for a cite is? Not sure I can do anything about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648.md?page=14)