# Agreement for framework for Iran nuclear deal reached **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648 "2015-04-02T19:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/501 "2015-04-21T20:59:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not only arguing against your position. I won’t say that NO deal with Iran would ever be acceptable. No, you’re saying that NO realistic deal with Iran is acceptable. We need to deal with the universe we live in. Not the comic book simplistic universe where strutting like a cock is better than intelligent negotiation. > [@](#): > > Just that given the concessions the President has already made, a good deal seems unlikely. That being said, the original framework as spun by the administration sure looks good enough after the latest reporting. And I see that liberal Dopers aren’t standing by that spin as the basis of a minimally good deal. Apparently we can make even more concessions, with no corresponding concessions on the part of the Iranians. That’s known as negotiating from a position of weakness. Are we negotiating from a position of weakness? I don’t know. And neither do you. You have no idea what the final deal with hold. You have no idea what is being leaked to manipulate opinion on both sides. You’re declaring a movie a bomb based on a teaser trailer. That’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/502 "2015-04-21T21:04:20Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, you’re saying that NO realistic deal with Iran is acceptable. We need to deal with the universe we live in. Not the comic book simplistic universe where strutting like a cock is better than intelligent negotiation. > > I don’t know. And neither do you. You have no idea what the final deal with hold. You have no idea what is being leaked to manipulate opinion on both sides. You’re declaring a movie a bomb based on a teaser trailer. > > That’s absurd. I’m declaring it a bomb based on what we’ve already conceded and based on what Iran has said the framework actually is. The original position of the pro-side in this thread was that those were maximalist demands. Since then, your positions have softened on that point. Why? Why would demands regarded as nonsense at first now be considered the basis for a deal? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/503 "2015-04-21T21:06:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m declaring it a bomb based on what we’ve already conceded and based on what Iran has said the framework actually is. The original position of the pro-side in this thread was that those were maximalist demands. Since then, your positions have softened on that point. Why? Why would demands regarded as nonsense at first now be considered the basis for a deal? Have my positions softened? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/504 "2015-04-21T21:18:54Z")
It’s time we update that 2008 cliche, “This is great news for the McCain campaign!” to something more 2015, like “This is great news for Iran’s nuclear weapons program!” Because no matter what happens – good, bad, indifferent; rain or shine; whatever or none ever; every single thing that happens is fodder for conservatives to say that Obama is giving Iran the bomb. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/505 "2015-04-21T21:32:30Z")
Conceding is a more accurate term. Any deal we make must guaran-damn-tee that Iran won’t get a bomb during the duration of the agreement. If not, then yes, we conceded a bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/506 "2015-04-21T21:37:13Z")
Except that Obama is not saying that. You’re saying that. The Administration has said repeatedly that it is willing to use force against Iran if it comes to that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/507 "2015-04-21T21:39:59Z")
You may be right. It could actually be that force is going to happen if the Iranians don’t accept a decent deal. The President might just be laying the groundwork to be able to go to his base and say he tried really hard to avoid war. In hindsight, I’d credit him with brilliance if that’s where his head is at. A last ditch attempt at negotiation makes sense in that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/508 "2015-04-21T21:42:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No one wants war, but neither should anyone want ANYTHING but war, including an Iranian nuke. It has long been US policy that an Iranian nuclear capability is out of the question and that we will use any means to prevent it. If that policy is changing, the President could at least be honest about it. If he won’t be, I’d expect Dopers to at least be honest about it. So tell us now, is that policy changing? Will we accept an Iranian nuke now, as in we won’t use force to stop it? From my perspective, preventing Iran from getting a nuke is not worth going to war with Iran. I don’t know how many Dopers who have been defending Obama’s Iran diplomacy are like-minded, but that’s my position on it. AFAICT there has been no change to the president’s policy, but I do wonder if the whole threat of force been a bluff from the beginning. I don’t really see Obama taking the country to war with Iran even with his back against a wall. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/509 "2015-04-21T21:43:35Z")
I think going to war with Iran just _guarantees_ that they will get a nuclear weapon in the long run. In the long run, _any country dedicated enough_ to getting a nuclear weapon will get one. War with Iran would just _ensure_ that they are dedicated enough. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/510 "2015-04-21T21:54:48Z")
That assumes they want one bad enough that they are willing to fight for it. Iraq and Syria did not want it that bad. Israel’s use of force deterred them. It’s possible that Iran would not be deterred by US use of force. But the historical evidence is that nations do not in fact fight against stronger powers for the ability to gain a nuclear capability. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/511 "2015-04-21T21:57:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That assumes they want one bad enough that they are willing to fight for it. Iraq and Syria did not want it that bad. Israel’s use of force deterred them. It’s possible that Iran would not be deterred by US use of force. But the historical evidence is that nations do not in fact fight against stronger powers for the ability to gain a nuclear capability. It wouldn’t matter – we could defeat them easily (relatively speaking – such a war would still cost thousands of lives or more), but unless we are willing to stay en masse for generations, they can get one once we leave if they want. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/512 "2015-04-21T21:57:56Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > From my perspective, preventing Iran from getting a nuke is not worth going to war with Iran. I don’t know how many Dopers who have been defending Obama’s Iran diplomacy are like-minded, but that’s my position on it. AFAICT there has been no change to the president’s policy, but I do wonder if the whole threat of force been a bluff from the beginning. I don’t really see Obama taking the country to war with Iran even with his back against a wall. You “wonder”? It is pretty clear that to determine whether Obama is lying is to check if his lips are moving. And that definitely includes his administration’s “We will not let nuclear-armed Iran happen” and “We will not let Iran acquire a nuclear weapon” statements. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/513 "2015-04-21T22:01:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You “wonder”? It is pretty clear that to determine whether Obama is lying is to check if his lips are moving. And that definitely includes his administration’s “We will not let nuclear-armed Iran happen” and “We will not let Iran acquire a nuclear weapon” statements. With duly low expectations, I ask: what basis do you have for saying that? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/514 "2015-04-21T22:15:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It wouldn’t matter – we could defeat them easily (relatively speaking – such a war would still cost thousands of lives or more), but unless we are willing to stay en masse for generations, they can get one once we leave if they want. It doesn’t take an invasion. Israel is not occupying Syria or Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/515 "2015-04-21T22:17:00Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > With duly low expectations, I ask: what basis do you have for saying that? When we see what the final deal says, we’ll know exactly what he told the truth about and what he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/516 "2015-04-21T22:22:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t take an invasion. Israel is not occupying Syria or Iraq. Syria and Iraq are not Iran (Iran is much more stable and homogenous), and even if Syria and Iraq really really wanted nukes, they’d get one in the long run. That’s how the world works. I think war with Iran would push them towards more resolve, not less. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/517 "2015-04-21T22:26:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t take an invasion. Israel is not occupying Syria or Iraq. A more plausible scenario is that Israel/the US bombs whatever facilities it can, and then Iran intensifies investment in the program and takes it further underground where it can’t be reached. Meanwhile, Iran greatly escalates their sponsorship of terrorism and becomes an even greater nuisance to US interests than they already are. What is our next move then? Either trying to negotiate with them (but from a much weaker position) or invasion. Your alternative and the associated range of outcomes is worse than the one being pursued. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/518 "2015-04-21T22:27:18Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > With duly low expectations, I ask: what basis do you have for saying that? You think yourself that Obama was lying when saying this. Or “bluffing” as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/519 "2015-04-21T22:28:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You think yourself that Obama was lying when saying this. Or “bluffing” as you put it. I said “wonder,” you said “definitely.” So I was just wondering if you knew something that I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/520 "2015-04-21T22:31:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You may be right. It could actually be that force is going to happen if the Iranians don’t accept a decent deal. The President might just be laying the groundwork to be able to go to his base and say he tried really hard to avoid war. In hindsight, I’d credit him with brilliance if that’s where his head is at. A last ditch attempt at negotiation makes sense in that scenario. Or, perhaps, he genuinely and sincerely wants a resolution that does not involve the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Maybe he realizes that if this effort fails, it gives extra energy to the war goblins here in America, as well as the ones in Iran. You “credit” him with cynicism. Or you will be willing to do so if he measures up to your standards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648.md?page=27)