# Agreement for framework for Iran nuclear deal reached **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648 "2015-04-02T19:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/101 "2015-04-04T01:33:42Z")
I doubt it. Iran is still a huge problem to the U.S. even if the nuclear issue is set aside. I can’t see diplomatic relations being restored for a long time yet. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/102 "2015-04-04T01:43:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That should be dismissed; [Foreign Policy Initiative](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Policy_Initiative) is a neocon think-tank, founded by William “Always Disastrously Wrong About Everything” Kristol. Didn’t you insist a few years ago that by this year Libya would be a prosperous, pro-Western democracy and haven’t you also insisted the Muslim Brotherhood was just a Muslim version of the Christian Democratic parties of Europe? I don’t bring that up to attack you(and if I’m wrong please correct me) but merely to point out it’s not clear you’re in a position to evaluate others ability to analyze or explain the Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/103 "2015-04-04T01:44:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Europe likes it. Guess who doesn’t? The Israelis AND the Arabs, who probably understand Iran a bit better than the West, where we have a history of delusion when making deals. But hey, we brought the Israelis and Arabs together, that’s something. You know, then let them work together to actually do something about it, instead of goading the US into upping the ante and getting itself into another shooting war that benefits itself least of all. What have Iran’s neighbors done to make the situation better? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/104 "2015-04-04T01:49:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How exactly can one say something is “unprecedented” if it has not been “negotiated into the final agreement”? That is, the “level of access to be provided” - what is it? No specifics? Then why do you (or the White House, for that matter) think it is “unprecedented”? The level of access has been agreed to, the specifics of how it is to be accomplished have not been. > [@](#): > > For example, it would be “unprecedented” if Iranians allowed IAEA to inspect, monitor and verify compliance at Iran’s military sites. Has that been mentioned in the document? It’s a really short document. The section title “Inspections and Transparency” is probably the one you’re most interested in. I’m not sure what you’re looking for as far as “military sites,” but if you’re thinking the agreement should include monitoring of Iran’s existing (conventional) military operations and equipment, I think you’ve failed to grasp what the negotiations are about. The details are centered on monitoring and limiting Iran’s research and production activities to peaceful (i.e. energy) uses of nuclear technology, on reducing Iran’s stock of enriched uranium, on eliminating their ability to produce weapons grade plutonium, and on heavily monitoring the full supply chain including production of new centrifuges and other equipment required for weapons development. ---
**Author:** ![THE\_ELECT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@THE\_ELECT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THE_ELECT)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/105 "2015-04-04T01:59:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some details [here](http://news.yahoo.com/iran-sees-progress-talks-resume-night-session-082019447--politics.html). Not a final agreement, but a “framework” for a future deal. President Obama stresses that it is not based on trust, but rather on detailed and ongoing verification. On the surface, it sounds great – allowing small nuclear energy capabilities (specific reactor technologies that cannot make nuclear weapons material) without the capability to produce weapons. Thoughts? Persia alias Iran will aquire nukes in the near future and quite possibly already have them. You see having the capability of making your nukes isnt the only way to possess them. Russia is already in the process of selling Iran ready made missles with the capability of launching as a ICBM.North Korea is also in cahoots with Russia to make Iran a member of the nuclear club. Israel and their Mossad as well as Shin Bet are quite aware that Iran is not interested in enriching uranium to create nuclear devices when they can buy them ready made. The news media will not broadcast this information as they are distracted by the uranium enrichment program and are unaware of Russias and north Koreas intent to arm Iran with limited nuclear devices intended for the U.S.A.and Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/106 "2015-04-04T02:13:16Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > The level of access has been agreed to, the specifics of how it is to be accomplished have not been. OK. Can you point out what exactly the “level of access” is that has been agreed to? And why it is unprecedented? > [@](#): > > It’s a really short document. The section title “Inspections and Transparency” is probably the one you’re most interested in. I’m not sure what you’re looking for as far as “military sites,” but if you’re thinking the agreement should include monitoring of Iran’s existing (conventional) military operations and equipment, I think you’ve failed to grasp what the negotiations are about. Well, if Iran gets to designate a site as “military” and not allow inspectors there, wouldn’t you say that makes inspections kinda useless? > [@](#): > > The details are centered on monitoring and limiting Iran’s research and production activities to peaceful (i.e. energy) uses of nuclear technology, on reducing Iran’s stock of enriched uranium, on eliminating their ability to produce weapons grade plutonium, and on heavily monitoring the full supply chain including production of new centrifuges and other equipment required for weapons development. … and if all, or most, of that is going to happen at “military” sites - how exactly will that monitoring be accomplished? ---
**Author:** ![THE\_ELECT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@THE\_ELECT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THE_ELECT)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/107 "2015-04-04T02:20:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t understand what the “framework” is. That appears to me like they want it to sound like an agreement when no agreement was reached. They kicked the can (ie, the details of the deal) down the road for 3 more months. Meanwhile, sanctions have been lifted". Iran got what they wanted, and we got nothing, yet. Maybe we get something in 3 months, and maybe we don’t. > > Maybe more details will be forthcoming in the days ahead, but I don’t see what we got out of this. Israel will be the catalyst that prevents Persias attempt to continue its crusade to make Islam the dominating organization of our world.The U.S.A. in all reality is out of the game and the ball is in Israels possession. Israel will do what it must to survive and will not wait for the world global powers consent to strike their enemies.Obama by being indecisive and weak has indirectly set the clock in motion.Because Obama has weakened our resolve as a nation which has put Israel in a position with no choice but to take matters in its own hands.Israel will stun the world with its next move and put Islam in utter chaos, watch and wait because this event is coming sooner then we think. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/108 "2015-04-04T02:47:31Z")
> [@THE\_ELECT](#): > > Persia alias Iran will aquire nukes in the near future and quite possibly already have them. > You see having the capability of making your nukes isnt the only way to possess them. > Russia is already in the process of selling Iran ready made missles with the capability of launching as a ICBM.North Korea is also in cahoots with Russia to make Iran a member of the nuclear club. > Israel and their Mossad as well as Shin Bet are quite aware that Iran is not interested in enriching uranium to create nuclear devices when they can buy them ready made. > The news media will not broadcast this information as they are distracted by the uranium enrichment program and are unaware of Russias and north Koreas intent to arm Iran with limited nuclear devices intended for the U.S.A.and Israel. What are you basing all this on? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/109 "2015-04-04T02:50:14Z")
> [@THE\_ELECT](#): > > Israel will be the catalyst that prevents Persias attempt to continue its crusade to make Islam the dominating organization of our world. What makes you think Iran is on any such crusade? ISTM all they want is regional hegemony, for ordinary, non-religious, geopolitical reasons. > [@THE\_ELECT](#): > > Israel will stun the world with its next move and put Islam in utter chaos, watch and wait because this event is coming sooner then we think. What sort of move are you thinking of, and how would it put “Islam” (as distinct from Iran) in chaos? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/110 "2015-04-04T02:53:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Didn’t you insist a few years ago that by this year Libya would be a prosperous, pro-Western democracy . . . I (and **Bibliovore,** the only Libyan Doper I know of) certainly hoped that would turn out better, yes. They now have all they need to be that. But democracy is complicated, especially in a country with no prior experience with it. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > . . . and haven’t you also insisted the Muslim Brotherhood was just a Muslim version of the Christian Democratic parties of Europe? Yes, and I still pretty much think that. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t bring that up to attack you(and if I’m wrong please correct me) but merely to point out it’s not clear you’re in a position to evaluate others ability to analyze or explain the Middle East? Still in a better position than any **neocon.** ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/111 "2015-04-04T02:55:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > OK. Can you point out what exactly the “level of access” is that has been agreed to? And why it is unprecedented? Honestly, if I thought it was worthwhile to break it down for you, I’d do that work. But as I said, it’s a short document. If you don’t want to read it, which would be the best and quickest way for you to find out what parameters have been agreed to for access, I don’t believe any summary I provide is going to cut it for you either. Nor do I feel either competent or inclined to review the historical precedents or to defend the opinions of the various “expert” commentaries available on the web. If you’d like to discuss specific things from the document, I’d be delighted to do that once you bring them up, with the understanding that we’re discussing an agreement of principles between the parties involved in the negotiations and not hypothetical ways the yet-to-be-negotiated details might be lacking. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/112 "2015-04-04T03:00:14Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > From [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov), [here](https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/parametersforajointcomprehenisveplanofaction.pdf) are the parameters agreed to so far to be included in the eventual agreement. (Warning, it’s a pdf.) > > From reading commentary on this, it’s my understanding that the level of access to be provided by Iran to the IAEA in order to monitor and verify compliance seems to be the unprecedented part. Details regarding the when & how of the IAEA inspections need to be negotiated into the final agreement. Details regarding the compliance milestones which will trigger lifting of specific sanctions must also be negotiated. > > But the parameters, that is the major elements that must be included in any final deal, have been agreed to by all parties. That’s a major accomplishment and ISTM > a necessary step in all such multi-party negotiations. > > I think possible snags in the ‘important implementation details’ mentioned in the first paragraph of the parameters file I linked to above would probably have to do with the ‘when’ and ‘how’ of the compliance triggers and the lifting of sanctions. (But obviously, IANA Foreign Policy Expert.) Appreciate it. Sadly my windows viewer says it can’t open it here, so I’ll do so when I get home. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/113 "2015-04-04T03:04:51Z")
> [@THE\_ELECT](#): > > . . . Israel will stun the world with its next move and put Islam in utter chaos, watch and wait because this event is coming sooner then we think. You will meet a tall, dark stranger who will assist you in realizing your dream. But beware of the influence of another, who may interfere at the last moment. Ah, now the light goes out and all is hazy. That’ll be $35. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/114 "2015-04-04T04:15:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I doubt it. Iran is still a huge problem to the U.S. . . . How, really? They can’t actually threaten us. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/115 "2015-04-04T04:59:29Z")
That was a close call. Iran was just a year away from the bomb. They’ve been a year away for like 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/116 "2015-04-04T05:09:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I (and **Bibliovore,** the only Libyan Doper I know of) certainly hoped that would turn out better, yes. They now have all they need to be that. But democracy is complicated, especially in a country with no prior experience with it. > > Yes, and I still pretty much think that. If you know so little about the Middle East and Islam that you can make such a moronic assertion that the Muslim Brotherhood is no different than the Christian Democrats of Europe then you really have no leg to stand on when it come to criticizing others. I’d recommend picking up some actual books by people who know what they’re talking about on the Middle East. Beyond that, it’s actually quite surprising that you’re still trying to defend you asinine prediction that Libya would within a few years turn into a prosperous, pro American democracy. For your sake I hope you never ridiculed the those who predicted the Americans who invaded Iraq would be greeted with flowers because your predication was at least as dumb. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/117 "2015-04-04T07:27:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you have actual examples of this? Because it sounds like yet another opinion that you can’t back up. Um, Iraq and NOrth Korea? Here’s an op-ed today published by Charles Duelfer, a guy who knows a little bit about this subject: [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/04/iran-deal-kerry-flawed-negotiations-close-116623.html#.VR-Ro-E2ezl](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/04/iran-deal-kerry-flawed-negotiations-close-116623.html#.VR-Ro-E2ezl) Iraq constantly dodged accountability, and while force was occasionally used in rather insignificant ways, the Security Council treated Iraq’s flouting of the agreements they made as reasons to talk more, or just things to let slide. As with Iran, we’ll probably get a lot less than what we agreed to, and we’ll say “good enough”. Let’s test the good faith of posters here though. If Iran doesn’t meet its full commitments, is it proper, in your view, for the US to reimpose sanctions unilaterally, or must we do so only if we can get agreement from our allies? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/118 "2015-04-04T11:21:33Z")
Let’s remind you of what you posted: “the funny thing about when rogue countries break a deal. rather than us simply re-imposing sanctions, there are calls for new negotiations, patience, yada yada, and the end result is that we cut them slack.” Did we not impose sanctions on Iraq after 1998? When did we negotiate with Iraq and cut them slack? Same for North Korea. After the Agreed Framework tanked, when did we relieve sanctions? When did we negotiate with them? What slack specifically was cut? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/119 "2015-04-04T11:25:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How, really? They can’t actually threaten us. Dude, you’ve posted dozens of times over the years how war games of US bombing raids on Iran end up with Iran provoking a much wider conflict. You can’t have it both ways, that Iran ican set the world on fire if we bomb them but we can easily resume diplomatic relations because they aren’t a threat. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648/120 "2015-04-04T11:43:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s remind you of what you posted: “the funny thing about when rogue countries break a deal. rather than us simply re-imposing sanctions, there are calls for new negotiations, patience, yada yada, and the end result is that we cut them slack.” > > Did we not impose sanctions on Iraq after 1998? When did we negotiate with Iraq and cut them slack? > > Same for North Korea. After the Agreed Framework tanked, when did we relieve sanctions? When did we negotiate with them? What slack specifically was cut? Let me rephrase then: when countries break these types of agreements, instead of simply going back to the pre-agreement status quo, we go to halfway measures and there are calls for more negotiations. The end result is that the nation that reneged gets something for nothing. Iran will break the agreement, and SOME sanctions will be reimposed, by SOME countries(or maybe even just us). The proposed solution will be the same as the proposed solution for North Korea: new negotiations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/agreement-for-framework-for-iran-nuclear-deal-reached/716648.md?page=7)