# Ah honest attempt to 'see the other side' by a Progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 24, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354 "2020-11-24T15:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/202 "2020-11-29T01:18:37Z")
Should conservatives take their own advice, or is it just the n\*\*\*\*\* loving baby killers who need to mind their place? ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/203 "2020-11-29T01:22:30Z")
Wow, this is your attempt to understand? Are you filled with hate? ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/204 "2020-11-29T01:31:14Z")
Sorry,I am going to have to leave now, the original The Thing is on Svengoolie. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/205 "2020-11-29T01:37:12Z")
Hatred of Muslims and fear that they will subjugate us all under Sharia Law is a common bigoted fear of conservatives. When they are the ones who typically want to turn this country into a theocracy, just a Christian one instead. I think that is the key here, they believe Muslims are the competition when it comes to telling other people how to live their lives. When the reality is that Muslims in the US tend to be pretty moderate and don’t want to force their views on others - unlike Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/206 "2020-11-29T04:57:50Z")
My conservative friends don’t come out and say that all Muslims are terrorists and wouldnt say otherwise if pressed. However they do trot out the meme that Muslims will be a majority in Europe in the foreseeable future and don’t want that to happen here. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/207 "2020-11-29T17:23:21Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Democrats are looking out for everyone else, and not white middle and working class people that drives them away, even if they agree in theory with the policies. The thing is, is that Democrats are looking out for _everyone_. That includes the white middle and working class. What is driving them away is that they want someone who looks out for _them_ especially, which is something that they can find in the Republican party. > [@bump](#): > > Personally, I think it’s a consequence of making politics about one’s identity in a group, rather than on the issues themselves. Right they are making the politics about their identity as white middle and working class. And they will support the party that promises to elevate them above the others. (Except for the upper class, they will _always_ be catered to first.) > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Can we exclude the fanatics at the extremes? When the Republicans stop voting them into office, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/208 "2020-11-29T23:27:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The thing is, is that Democrats are looking out for _everyone_ . That includes the white middle and working class. What is driving them away is that they want someone who looks out for _them_ especially, which is something that they can find in the Republican party. Maybe historically, but it’s become clear that neoliberalism has taken over the party and they are much more concerned with the top 1% than the working class. They bow to the whims of capitalists just as much, if not more so, as Republicans. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right they are making the politics about their identity as white middle and working class. And they will support the party that promises to elevate them above the others. (Except for the upper class, they will _always_ be catered to first.) Yep, people think “identity politics” is just on the left, but they cling to their white cishet identity just as much, that’s why anybody different is a threat to them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/209 "2020-11-30T15:35:14Z")
My Trumpist relations definitely believe that Muslims are evil and trying to take over and destroy America; it’s a narrative often intertwined with “The Left hates Christianity” (see also: the War on Christmas) and “The Left promote Islam over Christianity”. These messages are often circulated with a picture of Ilhan Omar, offered up as “proof” of the Left’s nefarious scheme to help evil Muslims undermine America from within. It’s all nonsense, of course, but it’s a persistent and pervasive view in right-wing circles, so I’d be surprised that anyone with any interaction with those circles hadn’t encountered it at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/210 "2020-11-30T16:16:45Z")
> [@CoconutPete](#): > > Yeah? But how is it not black supremacist in nature? Did I miss the explanation for this? How _is_ it black supremacist _at all_? ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/211 "2020-11-30T19:21:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > My Trumpist relations definitely believe that Muslims are evil and trying to take over and destroy America; it’s a narrative often intertwined with “The Left hates Christianity” (see also: the War on Christmas) and “The Left promote Islam over Christianity”. These messages are often circulated with a picture of Ilhan Omar, offered up as “proof” of the Left’s nefarious scheme to help evil Muslims undermine America from within. I’ve always found the criticism of Rep. Omar to be particularly hilarious. She is one of the more progressive, most pro-LGBTQ, most women’s rights supporting politicians in Congress and yet she is the one who will subjugate us all under Sharia Law (which doesn’t apply to non-Muslims anyway)? 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/212 "2020-12-01T23:15:17Z")
I just posted this elsewhere, but it fits here too. Check out this post from my friend(made on Parler, of course) > [@](#): > > What do you think of AG Barr’s statement that he doesn’t think there is wide-spread election fraud? Is he and the DOJ incompetent or has he been paid-off to ignore it? Until now I thought he was one of the good guys but now I’m thinking he is just another member of the swamp!! Full mental breakdown. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/213 "2020-12-02T17:00:35Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Maybe historically, but it’s become clear that neoliberalism has taken over the party and they are much more concerned with the top 1% than the working class. They bow to the whims of capitalists just as much, if not more so, as Republicans. True, and that is how trump won. He was a populist in a world where politicians had become different flavors of elitist. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/214 "2020-12-02T22:49:09Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I’m not saying $200k isn’t a good bit of money. I’m saying that I suspect that people making $200k don’t have nearly the access to deductions and avoidance strategies as people making orders of magnitude more money. Even ignoring the AGI issue, Sam’s own statement confirms this: > Nope. In 2017, billionaires in America paid 23% of their income in federal, state, and local taxes. The top 1% paid 26.8% of their income in tax - by far the highest tax rate of any group. In comparison, the upper middle class - the top 25% to 10% of taxpayers - paid only 11.5% effective taxes. The 1% is largely _not_ billionaires. It’s largely people making several hundred grand a year. Those people are driving up the average by paying substantially more than 26.8% taxes to make up for the 23% that the billionaires are paying. In fact, according to the same cite, 5%ers are also paying more at 23.7%. So while the tax system may be progressive below that 1% range, it’s regressive above that. And that is, as you mention, going only by AGI–it’s probably worse than that in practice. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/215 "2020-12-03T00:19:44Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Nope. In 2017, billionaires in America paid 23% of their income in federal, state, and local taxes. The top 1% paid 26.8% of their income in tax - by far the highest tax rate of any group. In comparison, the upper middle class - the top 25% to 10% of taxpayers - paid only 11.5% effective taxes. I think part of Sam’s post got by me the first time. Thanks for bringing it back up, @Dr.Strangelove Sam’s comment talks about the total of **Federal, State, and Local Taxes** paid by billionaires, but only points to the **Federal _Income_ Taxes** paid by the top 1% – a wildly unfair comparison. [[Possible source](https://www.businessinsider.com/american-billionaires-paid-less-taxes-than-working-class-wealth-gap-2019-10)] Which also says: > In 2018, billionaires paid a smaller portion of their income in taxes than average Americans. That’s the first time that has happened in history. And as you and I agree, that’s _still_ based on Adjusted Gross Income. And we’re back to square one of my basic premise. Also from the Business Insider article: > Between 1950 and 1980, billionaires paid more than 50% of their income in taxes each year So the _ **putative** _ “total” tax burden of America’s billionaires has been cut in half in the last two generations. How much _are_ we paying to support _our_ Royals ? > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > So while the tax system may be progressive below that 1% range, it’s regressive above that. And that is, as you mention, going only by AGI–it’s probably worse than that in practice. I think so. And it may very well be _wildly_ worse. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/216 "2020-12-03T01:37:08Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Maybe historically, but it’s become clear that neoliberalism has taken over the party and they are much more concerned with the top 1% than the working class. They bow to the whims of capitalists just as much, if not more so, as Republicans. Are you talking about the Democrats or the Republicans? The Bernie wing of the party seems to actually believe something like this, but I don’t see any evidence that this is actually the case. If the Democrats really did favor the 1% over the working class, we wouldn’t be in a situation where there are only a few good billionaires (Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, George Soros, Tom Steyer, and a few others) who support Democrats while most of the wealthy are Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/217 "2020-12-03T13:10:57Z")
Apologies. I lost track of which thread this was appearing in … after having said that I’d drop this subject on this thread. For any interested in pursuing this topic further … may I humbly suggest … > [@Do the rich pay their fair share?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/921817/): > > I did a quick search and found very little specifically about this. In association with the latest story about DJT’s tax returns, I heard a statistic that the wealthiest Americans pay an average of 24% in Federal Income Tax. I presume they’re talking about [Effective Tax Rate](https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/taxes/what-is-the-effective-tax-rate-15102865). But Effective Tax Rate reminds me of an old joke in medicine: The surgery was a complete success, but the patient died. Sometimes, our definitions differ from the definitions used by others. According to [Pew Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/06/a-closer-look-at-who-does-and-doesnt-pay-u-s-income-tax/): … ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/218 "2020-12-08T18:14:28Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > > [@Boudicca90](#): > > > > Maybe historically, but it’s become clear that neoliberalism has taken over the party and they are much more concerned with the top 1% than the working class. They bow to the whims of capitalists just as much, if not more so, as Republicans. > > True, and that is how trump won. He was a populist in a world where politicians had become different flavors of elitist. Trump won be using the ignorance, hatred, and frustrations of working class and middle class Americans to undermine the various institutions that keep America running and then presenting himself as the savior of the people. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/219 "2020-12-08T18:28:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > > [@damuriajashi](#): > > > > True, and that is how trump won. He was a populist in a world where politicians had become different flavors of elitist. > > Trump won be using the ignorance, hatred, and frustrations of working class and middle class Americans to undermine the various institutions that keep America running and then presenting himself as the savior of the people. Yeah, the whole “elitist” meme is propagandist garbage. The right has been using reactionary memes to trick people into supporting policies that result in a transfer of wealth to the super-rich. The left has been trying to use evidence and reason to try to get people to support rational policies. The accusation of “elitism” is a non sequitur used by the right to blind people to this reality. To say “Washington is elitist” is part of the firehose of bullshit to trick people into thinking that they need to support an “anti-elitist” while ignoring all the while what policies those so-called anti-elitists are actually implementing. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/220 "2020-12-08T22:39:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Trump won be using the ignorance, hatred, and frustrations of working class and middle class Americans to undermine the various institutions that keep America running and then presenting himself as the savior of the people. When did he undermine all these institutions? You think their side is ignorant, hateful and frustrated but your side isn’t? That doesn’t really seem in keeping with the spirit of the OP. You are basically dismissing the other side’s view as invalid ab initio. It doesn’t really display a desire to try to understand the other side. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Yeah, the whole “elitist” meme is propagandist garbage. The right has been using reactionary memes to trick people into supporting policies that result in a transfer of wealth to the super-rich. The left has been trying to use evidence and reason to try to get people to support rational policies. The accusation of “elitism” is a non sequitur used by the right to blind people to this reality. > > To say “Washington is elitist” is part of the firehose of bullshit to trick people into thinking that they need to support an “anti-elitist” while ignoring all the while what policies those so-called anti-elitists are actually implementing. Who is spreading this propogandist garbage? So the other side is stupid and being tricked and your side is using logic and reason to reach rational results? Some folks that voted for trump feel the same way. Some of them think the folks on the left aren’t bad people, they are simply being tricked…conned into supporting these stupid ideas. Two side of the same coin in many ways. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/221 "2020-12-08T23:09:21Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Who is spreading this propogandist garbage? All the usual people spreading right-wing propogandist garbage - every right wing news source, radio commentator, and most of their politicians. It’s slipped in amongst all the rest of the propogandist garbage that has turned modern conservatives into drooling morons and frothing rage beasts. And that’s actually the unbiased way to look at the situation. People are shaped by what they believe, and what people believe is shaped by what they are exposed to and what is repeated to them. This is an evident fact about humans demonstrated in many forums, and is the root of everything from religion to cults to incels to political movements. Conservatives believe stupid, obviously false things because they were _trained_ to believe these things, by people who know exactly what they are doing. Its an indoctrination process. And you don’t have to be stupid to be indoctrinated - though it can be a consequence of indoctrination, as you are trained away from various forms of rational thought which would cause you to reject the indoctrination. It’s worth noting that liberals can be indoctrinated too - there are a lot of liberals who are still against nuclear power due to the training of our youth, and you have your rabid PETA types and those psychotic murderous vegans. But the place where liberals get lucky is that the liberal and Democrat leaders don’t need to warp us into believing a complete alternate reality - the Republicans got their first. All the democrats have to do to get us to dislike Republicans is sit back and watch, as we recoil away from “the other side”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=12)