# Ah honest attempt to 'see the other side' by a Progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 24, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354 "2020-11-24T15:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/242 "2020-12-09T18:52:49Z")
We could spend the money on rehabilitation. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/243 "2020-12-09T18:55:35Z")
How is allowing me to keep more of my income “ shunting money to the rich”? It was never the government’s money. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/244 "2020-12-09T18:56:25Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > I believe everyone should contribute to society by paying an appropriate level of taxes. I believe you are sincere. I also believe that the current GOP politicians are of the opinion that for those making over $1,000,000 per year, the appropriate level of taxes would be “zero” or “very little”. So your statement is really not all that illuminating. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/245 "2020-12-09T19:04:31Z")
Do governments have a right to ask for taxes? Is it the government’s money when this happens? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/246 "2020-12-09T19:08:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Trump won be using the ignorance, hatred, and frustrations of working class and middle class Americans to undermine the various institutions that keep America running and then presenting himself as the savior of the people. When did he undermine all these institutions? You think their side is ignorant, hateful and frustrated but your side isn’t? That doesn’t really seem in keeping with the spirit of the OP. You are basically dismissing the other side’s view as invalid ab initio. It doesn’t really display a desire to try to understand the other side. Is this a serious question? Four years ago, Trump ran on a platform of “fake news” and “deep state” and “drain the swamp” and hasn’t stopped since, right up to the point of casting doubt on the recent election that he lost. The implication being that there is this complex conspiracy of corruption at all levels of government and the media that is working against the interests of the American people and that Trump was going to fix all that. I didn’t think that was controversial at all. What’s controversial is whether or not you believe he is correct. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/247 "2020-12-09T19:13:31Z")
Yes, I think taxes are a consistent part of any society. The money paid belongs to the government. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/248 "2020-12-09T20:42:05Z")
Then when the government reduces your taxes, it is ‘shunting’ money to you. It was the government’s money - it was earmarked for them at the time you were paid it, and is theirs whether or not it was paid to them on the spot or you paid it to them later. After your taxes are lowered, the money that was once earmarked for and owned by them, is now given to you instead. Happy birthday! ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/249 "2020-12-09T20:51:06Z")
So when I return the rental equipment in good shape, and they refund my deposit, they are giving me money because the money was earmarked for repairing damage to the equipment. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/250 "2020-12-09T20:56:05Z")
Was that supposed to be an analogy? Because it has no parallel to taxes at _all_. Here’s your analogy. Your employer gives you $2 and the government $8. The government shakes its head and says, “No, this isn’t the sixties anymore” and hands back $5 to be given to you. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/251 "2020-12-09T20:56:20Z")
No, it would be more like, when you returned the equipment, they decided to lower the rental price, and returned that money to you. Do your taxes vary based on how well you “took care of” anything? No, which is why your analogy fails. But they do vary based on what legislators choose to do with the tax code. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/252 "2020-12-09T20:59:10Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > How is allowing me to keep more of my income “ shunting money to the rich”? > It was never the government’s money. And you say this _right_ after saying “We could spend the money on rehabilitation”, which would cost more. If you are going to directly contradict yourself, try to leave a little space between statements next time. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/253 "2020-12-09T21:01:54Z")
Well my taxes do vary depending on what I do. Have you looked into R&D tax credits for your business? Every time we sampled a new material or process we were able to deduct those costs. Maybe you could do the same in your business. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/254 "2020-12-09T21:05:37Z")
Well when I said “the money “ I was referring to spending the same amount of money. I did not say anything about spending more. That you made up in your head. How much is a case of needles anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/255 "2020-12-09T21:09:57Z")
If you are saying spend the same amount of money on rehabilitation as is being spent on needle distribution, then “hypocrisy” is not the right word. The right word is “mockery”. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/256 "2020-12-09T21:23:44Z")
Do you think that is unnecessarily hostile? It doesn’t seem like you are making an honest attempt to understand my point of view. Not really the hill I want to die on. Help me to understand, do you believe you get more of a behavior if you reward it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/257 "2020-12-09T21:26:25Z")
Answer to first question- Not a bit. Answer to second question- Depends on the behavior and your definition of “reward”. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/258 "2020-12-09T21:31:40Z")
Ok, I see you went to the Trump school of diplomacy. It’s cool. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/259 "2020-12-09T21:33:22Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Help me to understand, do you believe you get more of a behavior if you reward it? Yes. Is there a point you’re trying to make by asking this question? If so, what is it? ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/260 "2020-12-09T21:45:26Z")
If you reward failure you will get more failures. It seems many liberal policies strive for compassion. The result is learned helplessness. Shielding people from the consequences of their decisions is not helpful. I have made too many posts now. I will return later. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/261 "2020-12-09T21:48:47Z")
Waiting with baited breath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=14)