# Ah honest attempt to 'see the other side' by a Progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 24, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354 "2020-11-24T15:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/283 "2020-12-10T00:06:27Z")
Thanks, I think I have all kinds of biases and unsupported ideas, and I like kind people who can guide me to wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/284 "2020-12-10T00:10:03Z")
You are right, I will strive to do better in the future. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/285 "2020-12-10T00:39:02Z")
Explicit. Now, I’m off to go play video games for five hours, or watch a tv show for five hours - I haven’t quite decided which. Have a nice hijack! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/286 "2020-12-10T00:46:17Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Thanks, I think I have all kinds of biases and unsupported ideas, and I like kind people who can guide me to wisdom You didn’t really answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/287 "2020-12-10T00:47:04Z")
Next up for you, we explain the Universal Basic Income. You’re gonna love it. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/288 "2020-12-10T00:56:04Z")
You got me. I have not studied the information available so I must answer that I tend to base my thoughts on things I have seen and heard myself. I understand that anecdotes do not form the basis for a defensible position. However, I don’t understand why I should deny the truth of the things I have experienced in nearly six decades of life. When a liberal tells me that I think” screw you jack, I got mine”, I shake my head. My position is that I followed my principles and have been rewarded by a long term marriage, four independent adult children, and early retirement. I think my position has merit. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/289 "2020-12-10T01:07:48Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > { …} However, I don’t understand why I should deny the truth of the things I have experienced in nearly six decades of life. {…} Because you have not studied the information available and your answers tend to be based on your thoughts and things you have seen and heard yourself. So it’s entirely unclear that you actually do understand that anecdotes do _not_ form the basis for a defensible position. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/290 "2020-12-10T01:13:01Z")
Ok, but you can’t argue that my indefensible worldview has not lead to great results. Is that not something to respect? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/291 "2020-12-10T01:13:04Z")
> [@Dahnlor](#): > > If you give tax breaks and subsidies to industrial polluters, you reward industrial polluting. Or is there a specific tax break that encourages industrial pollution? But, Handing out free needles prevents aids. It’s not like they don’t have needles, they’re just dirty gross and possibly infected. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Ignore reality more? What middle are you referring to? I think he might be objecting to focusing on the tiny sliver of crazies on the right and painting the entire right with their assholery. > [@begbert2](#): > > This is really happening, and pretending that all or even most conservatives are being calmly rational with a reasonable opposite perspective is to live a lie. How many conservatives do you know? I think most conservatives are being calmly rational. I think there are far more conservatives like Romney, Pence, Kasich, etc than folks like trump. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > We could spend the money on rehabilitation. Where do you think they are handing out the needles? They are handing out the needles in the same places they are handing out methadone. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > How is allowing me to keep more of my income “ shunting money to the rich”? > It was never the government’s money. The money is yours until it is taxed, then it is theirs. I think those are the sorts of comments that make people think conservatives are disconnected from reality. You just said that people should pay an appropriate level of taxes and now it seems like you think that the appropriate rate is as close to zero as we can get without disturbing things that you might value. Top marginal rates have not changed much in this administration but corporate taxes have been gutted. Corporations used to pay the lion’s share of america’s tax burden. Now many pay nothing. > [@msmith537](#): > > Is this a serious question? Four years ago, Trump ran on a platform of “fake news” and “deep state” and “drain the swamp” and hasn’t stopped since, right up to the point of casting doubt on the recent election that he lost. The implication being that there is this complex conspiracy of corruption at all levels of government and the media that is working against the interests of the American people and that Trump was going to fix all that. I didn’t think that was controversial at all. What’s controversial is whether or not you believe he is correct. So he undermined all these institutions during a single presidential campaign? And THAT’s what won him the presidency? I don’t think so. But you are of course entitled to your opinion. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Well my taxes do vary depending on what I do. > Have you looked into R&D tax credits for your business? Every time we sampled a new material or process we were able to deduct those costs. > Maybe you could do the same in your business. I don’t see how this makes your rental deposit analogy any better. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > How much is a case of needles anyway. A pack of 1000 is about $24 on amazon right now. The needles program does not reward behavior in the way that most economists think of it. Noone becomes an addict because the needles are free, there are no new entrants into the market because of it. Noone does more heroin because the needles are free. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > If you reward failure you will get more failures. Our bankruptcy code is frequently cited as the most important element of our system for entrepreneurialism. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > It seems many liberal policies strive for compassion. So maybe get rid of free school lunch? Maybe get rid of free education? Maybe let sick people die on theb hospital steps? What are you proposing? > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > The result is learned helplessness. The result should be reduced suffering and increased human dignity. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Shielding people from the consequences of their decisions is not helpful. Can you give us an example? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Waiting with baited breath. Bated Damn ninja’d > [@Gyrate](#): > > It seems many conservative policies strive for self-reliance. I think this might be an opportunity to reflect on the differences in attitudes. There is a reason why rural voters that are miles away from their nearest neighbor might consider self reliance more important than someone living in a population center where everyone depends on everyone else on a daily if not hourly basis just to make it through the day. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > But that’s not really the same thing. At all. The reason that your taxes varied in this case is solely because of what legislators have chosen to do, nothing to do with what you chose to do. They did a study after the reagan tax cuts to see to what extent people dediced to work more and it turns out that people liked money just as much when tax rates were high as when tax rates were low. Executive pay tended to increase because fighting for money made more of a difference when tax rates dropped from 90% to 50%. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s not something that’s really relevant to my business. You might be surprised. It covers a lot more than many people think. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > I have no problem supporting people truly in need. If someone wants to watch Tv all day but could work, that I have a problem with. I am trying to figure out what benefits you can collect as an able bodied person just sitting on their ass. The welfare reform act created a lifetime limit on the typical welfare benefit and unemployment requires you work at least some amount to qualify. What are these folks living on? $200/month food stamps? What? But there might be some sort of cliff where you suddenly lose all your benefits (medicaid comes to mind) And that’s why universal basic income is worth considering. Yang 2021. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > That is another problem I have with liberal policies. > They seem totally unaware of unintended consequences. can you be more specific about the policy you are talking about? Which programs? > [@Babale](#): > > You are basing your opinion on how we should run society on an anecdote. To me, your anecdote is entirely irrelevant in a discussion of social policy. I agree that anecdote is a useless basis on which to form policy. I wish folks on both sides would at least agree on this but depending on the issue both sides seem to rely on anecdotes to make their arguments. > [@begbert2](#): > > Which is an explicit statement, by you, that you think that non-liberal policies do not have this flaw, or do not have it in to the same degree. That’s not what explicit means. > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > You got me. I have not studied the information available so I must answer that I tend to base my thoughts on things I have seen and heard myself. that’s the problem. Liberals do the same thing. Without their perspective, their actions may look like bad policy but when you see people dying of aids because they shared needles with an addict that had aids you learn that giving out free needles doesn’t create more drug addicts. This isn’t just about being nice to drug addicts. It’s at least a bit about drug addicts not becoming aids patients and a drain on health care resources ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/292 "2020-12-10T01:19:53Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > {…} A pack of 1000 is about $24 on amazon right now. {…} Just imagine how much rehab that $24 would have bought! ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/293 "2020-12-10T01:28:13Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > You just said that people should pay an appropriate level of taxes and now it seems like you think that the appropriate rate is as close to zero as we can get without disturbing things that you might value I am ok with paying $40,000 a year in taxes. Too much, too little? I currently have less than 500 a month in income. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/294 "2020-12-10T01:29:46Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > You got me. I have not studied the information available so I must answer that I tend to base my thoughts on things I have seen and heard myself. > I understand that anecdotes do not form the basis for a defensible position. > However, I don’t understand why I should deny the truth of the things I have experienced in nearly six decades of life. > When a liberal tells me that I think” screw you jack, I got mine”, I shake my head. > **My position is that I followed my principles and have been rewarded by a long term marriage, four independent adult children, and early retirement.** > **I think my position has merit** Emphasis mine. So do you believe anyone who isn’t as successful as you are is not successful because they don’t uphold these principles, and therefore deserves a crappier life? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/295 "2020-12-10T01:31:42Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Ok, but you can’t argue that my indefensible worldview has not lead to great results. > Is that not something to respect? Great results by what metric? Your worldview has led to some of the worst wealth inequality and lack of social mobility in the developed world. It led to the disastrous COVID response in the US, whose outbreak is by far the worst in the world. I don’t consider these results “great” at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/296 "2020-12-10T01:38:18Z")
I think adults should live with the consequences of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/297 "2020-12-10T01:41:15Z")
Why do you limit your post to the developed world? Are the rest of the people on earth not worthy of our consideration? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/298 "2020-12-10T02:19:38Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > I am ok with paying $40,000 a year in taxes. > Too much, too little? > I currently have less than 500 a month in income. The absolute tax amount doesn’t matter it is the marginal tax rate that matters. That is what creates disincentives if any. I pay more than that and I wish I made enough to pay even more. Taxes are not an impediment to me wanting to make more money. I don’t think they are a disincentive to anyone. BTW. How do you pay 40K on 6K of income? > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > I think adults should live with the consequences of their actions. So how do you feel about the bankruptcy code? > [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Why do you limit your post to the developed world? > Are the rest of the people on earth not worthy of our consideration? That is actually a good point. A lot of the oppression that progressives complain about on the left are things that billions of people around the world are willing to risk death to subject themselves to. However that doesn’t mean we should be aiming to be barely better than the next best country. We should be everything that freedom and democracy promises to be. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/299 "2020-12-10T02:28:56Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Why do you limit your post to the developed world? > Are the rest of the people on earth not worthy of our consideration? Because I expect a third world nation to fail to provide for its citizens. It is sad, and I’d like to see those nations develop beyond this level, but unfortunately the national governments there lack the resources and organization to provide a better life to their citizens. I expect better of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/300 "2020-12-10T02:30:56Z")
Capital gains. Don’t know what my taxes will be but my investment account is up over 500k this year. That is unrealized income so time will tell what my tax bill will be. I was trying to set a price point that every citizen who enjoys police protection, dog catchers, food inspectors, nuclear deterrent, etc should pay. Bankruptcy is complicated. Restructuring to pay off debt is far preferable to debt erasure. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/301 "2020-12-10T02:33:47Z")
They will fail because they are black and brown people, amiright. How is that worldview not racist? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/302 "2020-12-10T02:37:38Z")
Annnd, this is why the thread is doomed, the other side isn’t interested in being seen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=16)